Soviet air victory claims on 17.6.1944 over Perkjärvi (Finnish front)?

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

I am two thousand kilometers or so away from my sources so cannot comment this particular incident more right now.

But surely the time difference between Finnish time and Moscow time was one hour in Summer 1944? At least some other cases fit like that.

The real problem for me is what time did JG 54 use when in Finland? At times it looks to be German (Estonian) time and sometimes actions rhyme more with the Finnish time.

IIRC Jermakov's claims do not really match with Finnish losses. StLt Vedenejev had the best claim/real loss ratio of 159 IAP as far as FinnAF is concerned.


Cheers,
Kari

[Juha]

Hello Kari
you are probably right, Stalin ordered the use of the daylight savings time in the spring of 1930 but that time was used around year, ie the clocks were not turned back to the normal time in the following autumn but the use of the daylight savings time became permanent. So also during the summer of 1944 Moscow time was GMT +3 and Finns used GMT +2.

Juha

[Juha]

I remembered that I have a copy of the ORB of the 2./HLeLv 24 and looked it. According to it Sarjamo's plane (MT-227) was hit right at the beginning of the combat. That is contrary what Lampi writes in his books but it is a contemporary official document of the lentue/Staffel in which Sarjamo served. So based on this info the crash time of the MT-229 given in Haapanen's book (at 6.50) is entirely possible.

Juha

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

According the 3. Lentorykmentti command point diary the flight where Nissinen and Sarjamo went missing was flown 6.25-7.25 Finnish time. The source was written almost real time back then.

Have to go, Computer battery is empty.

Cheers,
Kari

[Juha]

Hello Kari
thanks for the information!
But looking Haapanen’s book, which is entirely based on the official docus and the logbooks of Puro (2/HLeLv 24 as Sarjamo) and Lampi (1/HLeLv 24 as Nissinen), 10 109G-2s (five from 1st Flight and five from 2nd Flight, Haapanen gives the serials and I checked from the strength report of the HLeLv 24 from 1 June 1944 the flights in which they belonged) took off at 6.20 – 6.30. We know that Sarjamo led the high cover and Nissinen the “main force” and the mission and also according to Haapanen’s book five climbed to 2,000 m and five to 1,500 m. Puro took off at 6.20 and returned at 7.10, Lampi’s times were 6.30 and 7.40 and the same times are also in the Pyötsiä's (also belonging to 1/HLeLv 24) combat report. IMHO it seems that the high cover(2/HLeLv 24) took off first and the “main force” (1/HLeLv 24) after it. According to Haapanen four of the surviving MTs returned at 7.10-7.20 and the other four at 7.40. So it seems to me that the 2/HLeLv 24 took off first and also returned earlier.


Juha

[GuerraCivil]

Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio

IIRC Jermakov's claims do not really match with Finnish losses. StLt Vedenejev had the best claim/real loss ratio of 159 IAP as far as FinnAF is concern.

Hmm, I wonder how good that "correct claim" ratio is? Also Valentin Vedeneyev was involved in the shooting down of Finnish "phantom Fiats" on 9.6.1944. From the above posts it seems that Valentin Vedeneyev made no claims on 17.6.1944 (unless "Medvedev" is Vedeneyev).

Some Soviet piloting La 5 shot down Sarjamo (MT-227) and caused accidentally also the death of Nissinen (MT-229) - this is what Finnish sources seem to confirm. Many of Yermakov´s claims are obscure (as well as many claims of many other fighter pilots of WW2) but maybe this one is correct. Anyway it most probably was someone from 159 IAP as no other Soviet unit claims matching by date, location and other details are known.

By clock time the claims of Yermakov, Medvedev (Vedeneyev?) and Ruzin are closest to events recorded by Finns and thus one of them most likely caused the destruction of MT-227 (+ MT 229).