USAAF losses in June-August 1944

[Col Bruggy]

Hello,

Lancaster III ND840 (F/O G C Bucknell RAAF), was a No.97 Sqn a/c., not 93 Sqn.

The Lightning ?

From Chris Ward's 5 Group Bomber Command: An Operational History (p.93):

The target for the Davey's crew's eleventh operation on the 6th (August 1944), was the storage site at Bois-de-Cassan. The Master Bomber for the occasion was the former 619 Squadron commanding officer, W/C Jeudwine, who favoured a P-38 Lightning as his mode of transport. Unfortunately, communications problems between him and the main force led to confusion, and half of the 200-strong force retained their bombs. The Davey crew were in LM650 KM-T, which took them to the target and back in five minutes short of four hours.

Col.

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by keith A

Excellent, thanks Alex. I suppose the pilots of III.JG54 weren't used to seeing British 4-engiine bombers and the Halifax and Lancaster tails look a bit like B-24' Apparently several bombers were also heavily damaged, but it does seem like the LW fighter pilots had a bit of a feeding frenzy and imagined they'd done a lot more damage than is evident from RAF records.

Keith you are correct. All pilots in WWII had bad recognition problems. An ME-410 was a Ju 88, Halifaxes were B-24s, ad infinitum. Comes from not studying the photos and silhouettes. Unlike us latter day experten with all kinds of time, they only had 2-5 seconds to get the ID right.

[keith A]

I would have though the pilots would have seen a similarity between the Halifax and the B-24 but the Lancaster is a bit more unusual. I believe several Halifaxes suffered damage and one was hit by bombs from the formation. According to 2nd TAF Vol.2 a total of 4 Halifaxes, 4 Lancasters, 9 B-24 and a B-17 were claimed by JG26, JG54 and JG5 despite only 4 Lancaster FTR. The veteran Eastern Front groups seem to be most inaccurate in their claims - something that seems to occur a lot with JG54.

[Alex Smart]

Hello Col,
Thanks for correction, yes it is 97 Sqn, Must have got mixed with the earlier 83 Sqn and thus typo.

Alex

[Alex Smart]

Hello Keith,
There were other RAF BC losses on the 6th.
BCL Losses/vol5/Chorley.
A Halifax III of 51 Sqn, LW546 "MH-R" Op: Hazebrouck.
T/o 1910 Snaith to attack the railway cemtre. Lost without trace. All are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.
AND
From "Though Without Anger" by Colin Cummings page350.
A Halifax III of 298 Sqn, LL334.
Engaged in "Diplomat 9" in support of SAS ops. The a/c was intercepted by an enemy night fighter and shot down, crash landing some 60 Mi SE of Rheims.

Alex

[Larry]

Keith, it was the 509th FS / 405th FG that lost three P-47Ds to JG54 on 22nd June 1944.

The 509th FS was tasked with providing top cover for the rest of the Group.
During the course of the mission Captain F. B. Kinne leading ‘A’ Flight, as escort to the 511th FS, turned his Flight back towards Dreux to investigate some unidentified aircraft, which turned out to be other P-47Ds. However on their return to catch up with the 511th FS, his Flight was ‘bounced’ by two Focke-Wulf Fw190s which dived to attack from 6 o’clock high, closely followed by a further fifteen plus aircraft from the same Staffel. In the ensuing melee three of the 509th pilots were shot down; Lt E.G. Wilk became a Prisoner of War, Lt F.J. Boryczka avoided capture and returned to his unit on 26th August 1944 but Lt L.G. Zahn was killed. Only Captain Kinne returned, to report what had happened. III/JG 54, claimed these P-47Ds as downed near Dreux-Evreux-Chartes, at exactly the same time as the 509th FS were in the area. Claims were made for the three Thunderbolts by Uffz. Erwin Schleef of 9/JG 54 near Bernay at 21.12 hrs, Ofhr. Gunther Zilling of 9/JG 54 near Bernay at 21.12 and Uffz Otto Venjakob of 7/JG 54) near Evreux 21.22.

A further claim for a P-47D was made by Lt. Hans Dortenmann of 2/JG54 near Rouen at 21.20 but this was further north than the others so almost certainly relates to another action with Allied fighters.

[Nick Hector]

Hi blokes,

just to help out here from my database...

10.6.44. Believe these were claimed against 78th FG, with at least JG 26 and JG 27 also involved. Massive overclaiming: all up there were about 12-13 claims for only 5 losses. If it helps: 42-23519/HL-S of 83rd FS, 78th FG. Lt. Vincent J Massa KIA is attributed to Hermann Sewerin of 3/JG 27 and 42-76505/HL-V of 83rd FS, 78th FG. Maj. Donald W McLeod evaded is attributed to Ernst Duellberg. Both claims at 1430 German time. The JG 54 claims take place circa 10mins before that.


12.7.44. 366th FS, 358th FG. Overclaiming - only one loss: 42-76466/IA-M of Edward P Blevins KIA over Mesnil-sur-l'Estree. 2 claims by Weiss and one by Dietrich Peuss whereas Heinz Kemethmueller of 4/JG 26 claimed 3 all on his own. Every other P-47 loss that date was not due to enemy action.


23.7.44. 485th FS, 370th FG. 4 losses attributed to fighters. Includes P-38J-15-LOs 42-28348 of 2/Lt. Arthur L Green and 42-28411 of 1/Lt. Charles A Gaignat plus P-38J-10-LOs 42-67975 of 2/Lt. Carleton E Thompson and 42-67986 of 2/Lt. Lloyd O Weins (also given as Lloyd C Weins by some sources). All KIA


6.8.44. I acknowledge that these losses have been very well covered elsewhere in this thread...


Nick

[keith A]

Excellent, thanks gang. I have Bazi Weiss shooting down a Mustang 1a of 268 Sqn RAF on 22 June 1944 and a P-38 of an unidentified unit on 8.8.44 as well as a B-17 of another 8th AF unidentified unit on 27 May 1944.

[keith A]

The B-17 is one of 7 lost on 27 May 1944 in the Colmar region at around midday.Possibly of the 351st or 457th BG both of which lost aircraft on that date.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by keith A

I would have though the pilots would have seen a similarity between the Halifax and the B-24 but the Lancaster is a bit more unusual. I believe several Halifaxes suffered damage and one was hit by bombs from the formation. According to 2nd TAF Vol.2 a total of 4 Halifaxes, 4 Lancasters, 9 B-24 and a B-17 were claimed by JG26, JG54 and JG5 despite only 4 Lancaster FTR. The veteran Eastern Front groups seem to be most inaccurate in their claims - something that seems to occur a lot with JG54.

Not surprising, actually. Multiple gruppen with many inexperienced pilots making attacks on the same bomber 'stream' & probably the same bombers. I'm sure some of the returning bombers were fit for 'scrap'.