How effective was Schrage Musik?

[he219research]

Originally Posted by Denniss

He 219 weapons manual does neither mention weight or CoG issues for removal of the center bay guns. Judging from the manual Section IIB the MK 108 uses the attachment points of the center bay guns.

For weight calculation one needs to add 2x compressed air bottles required for the MK 108.

Excellent clarification, Denniss! I stand corrected (and I also totally missed the attachment point issue).

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello guys,

Some remarks:
1./NJG 1 was indeed a squadron as part of the I./NJG 1 (in German: a Gruppe, more or less comparable to a wing). It was the Gruppe I./NJG 1 which converted to the He219 since March 1944. As 'Denniss' said: would love to see any documentary evidence for the statement about the removed MK108's. There were He219's of the I./NJG 1 with no SM installation, I don't contradict this but it was not a common practice to remove SM installations as a habit.

However, Denniss is wrong about the statement that He219's were not fast enough to catch Mosquito's: comparing the max.speeds of both the Mosquito and He219 may prove him right, but the fact is that the I./NJG 1 is the best scoring nightfighter Gruppe against Mosquito's. I have 9 acknowledged victories recorded. Not an overwhelming number that shifts the fortunes of war, but exceptionally because the Ju88 en Bf110 equipped units could not match this number. Until the Me262 arrived, the He219 was the sole type that had a chance to catch a Mosquito.
The diaries and recollections of pilots/Bordfunker, the Kriegstagebuch of the I./NJG 1 and Heinkel documents show that catching a Mosquito was very difficult, even for the He219's with skilled crews.

Marcel

All the best, Marcel

[Denniss]

They might have had a chance with the A-2 or A-7 but likely either with stripped-down armament/armor or reduced fuel to catch loaded Mosquitoes - no chance vs unloaded flies on their return leg. The 219 was just too heavy with full fuel/armament and lacked alt performance in the A-0 to catch them.

[Stephan Wilkinson]

In engineering terms, the installation of long guns vertically into a shallow fuselage, whilst ensuring feed mechanisms and low drag, doesn't seem achievable.

I don't think that's true. I'm looking at a photo of the 30mm Schrage Musik unit out of an He-219 Uhu, including two guns and ammunition containers and feed mechanisms, and though I'm guesstimating measurements, the breech block/receiver units seem to be about 2.5 feet long with two-foot-long barrels. From the bottom end of the receivers to the floor of the aircraft seems to be about 1.5 feet, so inclining the guns from 65 to 90 degrees would still allow plenty of clearance at the bottom and probably extend the barrels several inches out into the slipstream at the top. Or move the entire gun down several inches, get the guns entirely out of the slipstream and still have plenty of clearance at the bottom.

These were pretty short "long guns."

[Denniss]

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/arch...inkel%20AG.htm
http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/arch...bewaffnung.pdf

[Schirmmutze]

I can't comment on the engineering technicalities but this thread caught my eye because I recently watched a documentary on UT and a veteran nightfighter pilot was talking about just how devastating Schrage Musik was in one particular victory of his. The Lancaster blew up above him after only a few dozen rounds and his aircraft (Ju88 I think he said) was thrown onto it's back, suffered considerable damage and he was blinded for several minutes afterwards but managed to make an emergency landing.

By the look on his face when describing all of this, I have no reason to think he was lying.

[Denniss]

He must have missed the usual target - the wings - and hit the bombs in the fuselage instead.

[Kaczmarek]

For my opinion the bombs in the fuselage must not been the cause. The arming vanes of the bomb pistols was secured with a arming wires. This wires was removed in the moment of dropping the bombs. Before this the bombs were uncritical. The main cause was exploding fuel and in connection with burning TI's and INC's. Note the much UXB´s after aircraft crash.

[Snautzer]

22 mm cannon shell exploding in a bomb will do the trick fused or not.

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Dear Dennis,

The first Mosquito-kill by a He219 of the I./NJG 1 was in the night of 6/7 May 1944: this was a He219A-0. The next 9 Mosquito's were also shot down by He219A-0's, the last Mosquito fell in the night of 18/19 July 1944.

The first maiden flight of a He219A-2 (Werkenr. 290002) was on 15th July 1944 at Rostock, two days later the same aircraft made another flight at Rostock to check the communication equipment. On paper the A-2 and A-7 might have had better chances against Mosquito's, documentary evidence shows that the I./NJG 1 had no further Mosquito-kills despite a very few A-2 deliveries late July 1944 and a first A-7 delivery late December 1944...

Best regards, Marcel