Walther Dahl

[knusel]

Good morning Gentlemen,

I'm still trying to find evidence for Dahl having or not having scored 128 kills.
Also if his maximum Me262 score is 7.
This website says it is 9.
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dahl.html

Cheers,

Michael

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by knusel

Good morning Gentlemen,

I'm still trying to find evidence for Dahl having or not having scored 128 kills.
Also if his maximum Me262 score is 7.
This website says it is 9.
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dahl.html

Cheers,

Michael

We now know a lot more than when I helped work on that "frozen in time" website:

Walther Dahl

22.6.41/0430
"I-18"
W of Lemberg @ 1500m
23 or 28 IAP. Details pending

8.8.41/1330
DB-3
E of Majewo
11 DBAP? They suffered at least 5 losses, crews of Ml.Lt. A I Pykhtin, Serzhant A Evdokimov, Ml.Lt. P T Krashenninikov, Ml.Lt. Nikolay Ilyich Alimbarashvili and Serzhant N I Mineev all failed to return. Another possibility is 8 DBAP, crew of Lt. Ivan Yakovlevich Korovin which was definitely lost to fighters

24.8.41/0855
"I-180"
S of Zaporozhe
162 IAP? They lost Ml.Lt. Andrey Panteleevich Tsaplagin KIA this date

14.9.41/0605
I-153 "Tchaika"
Jelesawetowka/Mironovka area
44 IAD Staff. This was probably claimed against Leytenant Grigoriy Kotscha. Overclaiming, as he managed to escape (also appears to have been claimed by Gollob)

19.9.41/1357
SB-3
Kotschubjewka
Possibly 316 ORAP. Crew of Ml.Lt. Yaroslav Leonidovich Bratolyubov

Unconfirmed
2.4.42/1530
Hurricane ("Spitfire")
Malta
BV174 of 229 sqn. P/O Andrews returned to base with damage

26.8.42/0830
Yak-7B
NW of Stalingrad @ 800m
(Wilcke and Wessling claimed as well)
Were these claimed against 900 IAP? They lost Lt. Viktor Alekseyevich Saburov KIA

7.9.42/1536
La-5
SW of Achtuba (PQ 49283) @ 2500m
3 GIAP or 27 IAP, 287 IAD, 8 VA. Definitely 3 La-5s lost this date

19.9.42/1144
Yak
1km SE of Kotluban @ 500m
8 VA (1 Yak-7B lost) or 16 VA (6 Yak-1s and 1 Yak-7B lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA losses include Pavel Nikolaevich Bulaev of 520 IAP KIA and Ivan Yakovlevich Buldygin of 581 IAP

24.9.42/1103 and 1109
2 x Yak-1s
Stalingrad – Dubovka
8 VA (no known losses) or 16 VA (8 Yak-1s lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA's losses include Mikhail Stepanovich Bubnov of 43 IAP, Serzhant Peter Korneevich Sednev of 520 IAP and Ilya Mikhaylovich Yuzhakov (AE CO) of 812 IAP. All KIA

27.9.42/1603
Stalingrad @ 4500m
8 VA (1 IL-2 lost this date) or 16 VA (no known losses this date). 8 VA's loss was 944 ShAP, Serzhant Pavel Vasilyevich Sytov
(Wilcke also claimed, so one must be an overclaim)

14.10.42/0707 and 0715
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
20-25km NW of Stalingrad
Likely 245 ShAP. Losses include Evgeny Filippovich Baranov POW (liberated in January 1943). 954 ShAP lost Kapitan Arkady Ivanovich Buzev (AE CO) KIA
There were about 5 claims in total

17.10.42/0915
Yak-1
50km NE of Stalingrad @ 2000m
512 IAP. Starshiy Leytenant Ignatiy Biryukov

25.10.42/1039 and 1421
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Krasnoarmejsk – Stalingrad
686, 807 and 945 ShAP, 206 ShAD? (definitely in action this day). Losses include MSgt Sudarkin of 945 ShAP, forcelanded 5km S of Prishchevka (already damaged by Flak, finished off by a Bf109). 944 ShAP lost St. Serzhant Nikolay Sergeevich Smirnov KIA

26.10.42/1402, 1407, 1408 and 1412
4 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Stalingrad – Beketovka
Day's IL-2 losses include 206 ShAD's Sgt. Malyshev KIA over Sarpinskiy Island. 686 ShAP, 807 ShAP, 811 ShAP and 945 ShAP all in action this date. 505 ShAP lost Serzhant Alexei Nikolaevich Sipigin KIA this date 807 ShAP lost Pavel Dmitrievich Shurigin in an alleged taran this date

27.10.42/1000
Yak-1
12km E of Krasnaja Sloboda
Day's losses in the Stalingrad sector include 11 IAP's Vitaliy Vasilievich Serkov KIA. Same unit lost Serzhant Vasily Ivanovich Titov on IL-2 escort mission and definitely to fighters was Nikolay Aleksandrovich Shershilov baled out failed to return

30.11.42/0810 and 0812
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Pitomnik – Kotluban
622 ShAP, 214 ShAD, 8 VA definitely in action over Pitomnik in the morning losing 6 planes and 5 crews including Kapitan Dobrokhotov and Serzhant Pyatiletov. 5 more were seriously damaged

15.4.43/1629 and 1630
2 x LaGG-3s
Kuban bridgehead
At least 9 LaGG-3s lost this day. 4 from 267 IAP, 2 from 979 IAP, 2 from 926 IAP and 1 from 269 IAP more specific info is impossible due to large number of claims/losses

29.1.44/1107
B-17 Flying Fortress
Mannheim-Bastogne
Definitely lost to fighters around this time was 42-31486 of 612th BS, 401st BG. 2/Lt. John Tannahill Jr and 7 others KIA, remaining 2 crewmen both POW

24.2.44/1312
2 x B-17 Flying Fortress HSS
One of these was very likely B-17G-25-BO Flying Fortress 42-31666 "Poncho Thalken" of 96th BS, 2nd BG (damaged by fighter, ditched in the sea)

24.2.44/1320
P-38G-5-LO Lightning
30km SE of Steyr @ 5000m
Likely 42-12815 of 95th FS, 82nd FG. George Milton Gearhard baled out near Windischgarten after combat with fighter identified as Fw190

24.4.44/1330
B-17F-115-BO Flying Fortress
Augsburg area @ 6500m
Most likely one of several claims for 42-30730/WW- of 369th BS, 306th BG. 2/Lt. David B Ramsey and crew all POW

24.4.44/1345
P-51B-5-NA Mustang
near Muenchen @ 6500m
This one likely one of several claims for 43-7103/OS-O of 357th FS, 355th FG. 2/Lt. Howard K Hillman KIA

15.8.44/1145
B-17 Flying Fortress
Daun-Kyllberg area (PQ PO to QO) @ 6500m
First one to be attacked was 42-31183/VK-Y "Bad Penny" of 358th BS, 303rd BG. 2/Lt. Arthur L Goss and one other KIA, remaining 7 crewmen all POW
(this appears to be one of at least 6 claims for her)

15.8.44/1146
B-17G-5-BO Flying Fortress
Koblenz area (PQ PP-PO-QO) @ 6500m
Definitely down at 1146 was 42-31224/VK-F "Helen Heaven" 2/Lt. Samuel C Smithy and 4 others POW, remaining 4 crewmen all KIA

13.9.44
B-17 Flying Fortress (rammed)
Believed to be overclaiming, possibly fiction. No known loss by ramming

6.10.44/1205
B-17G-40-VE Flying Fortress
Naunen-Brandenburg (PQ FF-FG-GF) @ 8000m
551st BS, 385th BG. Was this 42-98010/Q of2/Lt. Deloy Taylor and crew all KIA except one man POW. Or possibly 43-38217/P of 2/Lt. Raymond W Tuley and 5 others KIA, 3 POW or 43-38430/N of 1/Lt. Donald J Andreas and 3 others KIA, 5 POW

26.4.45
P-51D Mustang
Near Dilligen
Was this 44-72967 of 354th FG? - Appears to be last Mustang lost in ETO, apparently attributed to Flak

[knusel]

Good morning,

these piecemeal bits are not sufficent to prove that the 128 are or are not a hoax.
The best assessment of this topic that I ever read is the article that falkeeins linked in post2.
I've also worked through this Dahl biography:
https://www.amazon.de/RITTERKREUZTR%...s=walther+dahl
but despite being enjoyable to read it rather uncritically features a 128-kill-list.
I hope one day we will find a contemporary statement or a rudder photo or another primary document that clarifies the matter totally.

Cheers,

Michael

[Nick Hector]

Maybe not, but when you are prepared to uncritically accept aces tallies without acknowledging overclaiming, I am surprised that actually bothers you

[Jean-Yves Lorant]

Gentlemen,

First of all let me suggest to Michael "Knusel" not to trust this very "unreliable" Czech site.
I prefer the rigor of the list proposed by Hector.
When I asked him specific questions about his book "Rammjäger" in 1979, Walther Dahl advised me to read it again, making sure everything was correct. I had good reasons to doubt. A little later, in discussion with Walther Loos and especially Günther Ritzka, my doubts proved to be well founded.
Walther Dahl's voluntary collision with a B-17 on September 13, 1944 is pure fiction, none of his wingmen remember this event, there is no material loss to the Stab./JG 300 on that day. This voluntary collision does not appear in his "Leistungbuch" which Hans Ring gave me the copy, a document written during the war and therefore theoretically more reliable than his colourful autobiography . He nevertheless inverted the dates of September 11 and 13, 1944 in this document, the writing of which might have been entrusted to a not talented secretary. This Leistungbuch poses many other problems because it is often difficult to find allied losses at the places and times indicated. Unfortunately, I did not access Walther Dahl's logbook of the 1945 war missions, which may have dispelled some of my doubts because even the presence of both Fw. Walther Loos and Fw. Werner Bohnenkamp is an insoluble problem.


Finally, I find it very surprising that the impetuous Inspekteur der Tagjäger was able to perform as many war missions in 1945 and reach a total score of ... 133 aerial victories (see Leistungbuch's last page). But one thing is sure: "Ramm-Dahl" never rammed !


Regards
Jean-Yves Lorant

[Nick Hector]

Cheers, M. Lorant

I am amazed that anyone in the year 2018 still thinks that the mere listing of names with unsubstantiated "victory tallies" written alongside them comprises anything that might deserve the title of "research."

[Martin Gleeson]

Nick,

I have to say I really appreciate the detailed contributions you and others make on the Eastern Front air war. I do not research it but am very interested in it. All the more so when we finally see the Soviet losses and especially when we see names of real people.

Keep it up and thanks again.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

[PMoz99]

I am also interested in Dahl's claims, and looked through the info you provided for 37 of his claims in detail. From what I can see, there are maybe 5 claims which are likely overclaimed or false. Another 2 or 3 where several pilots may have claimed the same a/c shot down. Several where we can't make any decision one way or the other because of the number of losses and the number of claims made by other pilots.
So of 128 claims, with the info you provided we could be down to 120. Hardly a difference to get worked up about. But what of the other 97 claims?
I have a note in my list that another thread on 12OCH has his total as 103,
but unfortunately, I couldn't readily find that thread again.
Johannes' research has his total as 89. If I was going to accept a figure, I'd probably go with that one.

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

I am amazed that anyone in the year 2018 still thinks that the mere listing of names with unsubstantiated "victory tallies" written alongside them comprises anything that might deserve the title of "research."

Not sure what makes you think that, Nick. Who are you referring to? Are you sure that's not just your imagination and bias running riot in your own mind?

Peter

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by PMoz99

Not sure what makes you think that, Nick. Who are you referring to?

Peter

Let us all interpret Nick's point as a clear reference to the reliability of the information given by www.luftwaffe.cz and continue with a peaceful, courteous discussion.

[Nick Hector]

Not sure what makes you think that, Nick. Who are you referring to? Are you sure that's not just your imagination and bias running riot in your own mind?

Peter[/quote]

Peter,

Yes, let's talk about imagination and bias for a moment, shall we?

Once again you try to paint me as somebody with psychological issues because I make a stand against Knusel's use of sources that are almost good enough to be called dodgy and the fact that he volunteers to ignore the simple concept that if (for example) Hartmann's tally consists of a disproportionate amount of overclaims, then does he really deserve the title of "top ace". Which then brings the question:

So what is the POINT of all these lists he is "meticulously, painstakingly" compiling?

In an age when we finally CAN compare the victories and losses of both sides, the mere listing of men's names with numbers beside them
Hartmann 352
Barkhorn 301
Rall 275... etc....

Is utterly obsolete.

This is a concept that the moderator, Nick Beale, has also expressed his agreement of yet you never challenge him on that point, Peter. Nor does Knusel answer that question satisfactorily. In fact, Knusel gets quite rude and speaks down to people that challenge him on it. Kind of belies his "good evening gentlemen / have a nice Friday" act. More fool anyone hoodwinked by it.

I say to you, not for the first time, that you have walked in halfway into the discussion, picked a side and been blinded to the issues of that side...

The pair of you dare to wonder why Knusel feels discriminated against. It's as easy as this, if you talk down to a moderator, only ever milk the forum for as much as info as you can get for free, never answer anyone else's query and volunteer to give people the "internet version of the silent treatment" when they call you out on it (I say again, including moderators)... ....you can't expect them to defend you when somebody stands up to you and has given up on being polite about it.

Take the time to read and spend the money on a decent book that looks at BOTH sides of an aerial campaign instead of engaging in endless "What do you think of this Wikipedia article, Michael? "Oh I googled it and Osprey says this Peter" discussions.

And you know what, I'll risk a ban rather than leave all this unsaid because this crud is the slow death of a once great forum. The pair of you are asking professional authors and dedicated researchers to give you information that they have spend valuable time and money on.... ...for free. And when you are not doing that, you are discussing sources that do indeed contain the information but in plagiarised form.
What about the profit the authors and researchers deserve for their hard work....? You're asking for their help here and all the rest of the time undermining their hard work and profits.

So yes, think what you like. And yes, Nick Beale and John Beaman, go ahead and ban me if you wish. It's time these two were bloody well told.