Possible Spitfire data plate

[PeterA]

Let me just clear the air here.

The plate was fully recognised by both parties as to what it was prior to an agreed trade.

A deal was struck for a trade and a number of German plates were proffered from which a selection was made.

The Spitfire plate arrived by post at my UK address ahead of anticipated despatch.

Two German plates were immediately despatched by UK postage of identical security and similar cost as the Spitfire plate that had come from the US. The recipient was advised of despatch.

The German plates were tracked as far as UK posting will allow, the US East Coast...New York, but failed to make the last leg of their journey. (tracking number RJ881070916GB)

Fact.

Now if the Spitfire plate had been sent by special courier or UPS door to door at some cost and I had 'cheapskated' and sent the German plates by a less secure system there might just be a case to answer here.

My conscience is quite clear here and I am disappointed in your postings on this matter.

Your quarrel should be with the US Postal Service.

The forum can judge me.

Peter Arnold

ps. The data plate will be returned to its original position in the cockpit of RK858 when it is restored, as I have already advised.

.

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by harrison987

oh yeah...how did that go?

After seeing detailed images of your data plate, Peter Arnold (being the obvious expert that he is) told you he had no idea what it was for. He played dumb...and made you a low-ball offer for it. You agreed, and then the moment he received it, he admitted it was in-fact the main data plate for a RK858, which he obviously knew this the entire time.

Not exactly "honest" behaviour.

Then to further his is dishonest behaviour, he STOLE it.

He never sent you what you agreed to...and he now sits with a data plate worth thousands of dollars.

For someone who prides themselves in their reputation, maybe you should return the stolen plate, or at lease PAY Steve for it?

Sad that people like that are still in this community...makes other legitimate collectors look bad.

Sorry that happened to you Steve. Maybe Peter will look back on how he treated you...and solve this long ongoing issue.

Immediate Email response to Steve Polyak after first seeing detailed images of said data plates.

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Arnold xxxxx
To: Steve Polyak yyyyy
Sent: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 4:16 am
Subject: Re: Spitfire & Hurricane data plates

Hello Steve,

A very interesting collection.

Two of the plates are from Spitfires.

CBAF IX 3208 is the plate from the cockpit. and by juxtaposition with known plates and RAF serials lies within a range of serials of Spitfires that went to Russia. The precise identity of the actual aircraft cannot be ascertained 100% as sometimes there are slight discrepancies in the sequence so +/- 20 on Spitfire Mk IX RK836.

The CBAF 9570 is a Modification plate and the Mods relate to the rudder.

I would be very interested to see images of the pieces of structure that these two plates were removed from. I am surmising that these batch of plates originate from Russia. Would it be possible to back track down the trail?

I do have images of bits and pieces of Spitfire wreckage in Russia that were recovered in the 1990's.

Best regards,

Peter

[stephen f. polyak]

Nick, As Peter responded, please allow me, remaining civil, to add details…

Peter and I agreed to a trade - fact.

He received the Spitfire plate, but I never received the Bf109 plates that he offered in exchange, which he was fully aware of - fact.

He associated the Spitfire plate specifically with RK858 after it was in his hands, in spite of having a clear photo of it before I mailed it to him - fact.

After I spent two months of waiting and exhausting inquires with the US and UK Post Offices, when I asked that he return the Spitfire plate or replace the 109 plates, he told me, in effect, tough luck, that's the way it goes - fact.

Indicative of his self-serving rational, and I quote: "We all know the risks of international posting". Read more in the attached message.

Following my Nov 2012 message, also attached, he broke off all e-mail contact with me - fact.

And some three years later, he still has the Spitfire plate (with such noble intentions, he has not given it to the owner of the remains of RK858 after all this time, let alone return it to me); he has not attempted any form of resolution, whatsoever; and, after reading his latest flawed rationalization, he still shows no remorse or shame.

Peter, I made my own judgement about your behavior, and character, in 2012, but I'll stop here!

Steve

[SteveB]

I wonder if Mr Polyak has checked in the bowels of Homeland Security?

I for one do not see any value in these exchanges being continued on a public forum. I think this thread should be locked and if the protagonists wish to continue they do so off board.

Steve

[PeterA]

Quote from harrison987:-

“He never sent you what you agreed to...and he now sits with a data plate worth thousands of dollars.”

Why not be honest Stephen, it is clear that you and ‘harrison987’ think a very valuable item has slipped through your hands. You are under the misapprehension that this plate is extremely valuable based on information you have received from apparent expert opinion in the UK…and it hurts and drives you on… but it shouldn’t.

At the very first sighting of images of this plate that you sent to me I gave you the fullest and honest appreciation of what it was and where in my records, complied over 50 years, the serial range I estimated it came from…+/-20 on RK836. I also suggested that if correct this plate probably came from Russia. You confirmed by later email that the source of the batch of plates was Russia via Scandinavia.

A further check on my records and notes of inspection of the recovered wreck of RK858 at Duxford and the fact that clearly the cockpit data plate, by virtue of a clean witness mark, had been removed in very recent times, plus the condition of the underside of the plate when finally viewed in full, in the UK, led me to say beyond reasonable doubt that this plate had been removed from RK858 at some time in transit from NW Russia. This, despite my fellow historian and co-author, Gordon Riley, committing the cockpit plate number for this machine to CBAF IX 3746 in Volume I of our book Spitfire Survivors.

There are no documents that link Spitfire cockpit construction number plates to RAF serials. On occasions the odd plate has been found to carry the RAF serial written in pencil or electric pen on the reverse.

If the Russian wreck had been totally devoid of an RAF serial after microscopic inspection, and this data plate was the key to identifying it as RK858, then yes its value would be high, as your UK advisor indicated. That is not the case here as the plate does not confirm the RAF serial and the wreck still has the painted RAF serial discernible on the fuselage and on several of the internal components including the fuel tank. The firewall plate is/was still attached at the time of my inspection and more than satisfies the CAA requirement for a manufacturing construction number.

So value. There are many of these almost identical plates on all the sheet metal assemblies on a Spitfire. The 27 ‘tells me’ this is from the fuselage group and the IX ‘tells me’ it came from the cockpit. I would estimate £50-100 as a Spitfire plate, maybe twice that with association to a known and registered survivor. Others may have a different valuation. It will not be going on eBay and like several other plates like this that have passed through my hands, it, or a precise replication, will be reunited with the fuselage when the project passes from its current storage with a restoration shop to a new owner funding its restoration to fly.

Without consultation with me you made the unilateral decision, after risk assessment, to commit the Spitfire plate to the US/UK postal system. I, I think reasonably, responded at the same ‘bar level’ sending not one but two Me109 plates to you through the UK/US postal system. The tracking evidence confirms they reached New York. At some point between New York and your post box, your package in your country was ‘misappropriated’. Live with it. I have taken advice on this matter.

Your loss is precisely a proportion of the total amount you paid for a number of German and British data plates you acquired as one lot from Scandinavia/Russia. Care to tell us how much?

Peter Arnold – Spitfire Historian

Russia






The firewall plate

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by SteveB

I for one do not see any value in these exchanges being continued on a public forum. I think this thread should be locked and if the protagonists wish to continue they do so off board.

Steve

Agreed.