Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

[harrison987]

Interesting stuff...

But does any of this really matter?

I mean...what is the point?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by harrison987

Interesting stuff...

But does any of this really matter?

I mean...what is the point?

To me it matters to establish what really happened. I realise it won't change the outcome of the war but we may understand it a little better.

[Broncazonk]

Was Hartmann's appearance, presence and success known to the Soviet's? I seem to remember reading that the Russians placed a reward (bounty) on Hartmann's life, and his aircraft. Can this be confirmed in Soviet records? Also, was Hartmann's uniquely painted aircraft known to the Soviets? Can this be confirmed by Soviet or German sources?

If a bounty on Hartmann's life was a fact, and if the Soviets knew what Hartmann's aircraft looked like, this would suggest that Hartmann was the subject of, "special attention." That special attention may have involved specifically denying him credit in Soviet loss reports. We all know the power and the role that political officers and the NKVD played in the Soviet war effort, and that role included EXACTLY the kind of morale and counter propaganda campaign that would supersede the need to file accurate loss reports.

Given Hartmann's profile in Germany and the Eastern Front, Hartmann was almost certainly given "special attention" by somebody on the Soviet side.

On the other hand, Hartmann may have been ordered to over-claim as a part of a German/Luftwaffe propaganda effort. This is a distinct possibility as well.

One thing is certain:

Hartmann walked into Soviet captivity rather knowingly and more voluntarily than anyone else. He was given several opportunities to go to JV-44. He also disobeyed General Seidemann who ordered Hartmann and Graf to fly to the British sector to avoid capture by Soviet forces. Hartmann refused on multiple occasions to abandon his men who were not given the option to go west. (Not being critical, but others went West when given the same opportunity.)

Bronc

[HGabor]

Not sure about the 'special attention', but I think Hartmann himself did not affect the soviet loss records at all. the soviets very often mixed the Fw 190s and Bf 109s in the air (based on distance, poor visibility, etc.) so I do not think they saw any special markings if they missed even the plane. Especially, because Hartmann usually attacked from the back and disappeared quickly - that's why he had serious problems observing the ultimate fate of his attacked opponents. The soviets had quarterly plane 'inventories' in their mechanical papers, planes couldn't just disappear from those lists without showing up in some units' loss reports, etc.

[mars]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

Was Hartmann's appearance, presence and success known to the Soviet's? I seem to remember reading that the Russians placed a reward (bounty) on Hartmann's life, and his aircraft. Can this be confirmed in Soviet records? Also, was Hartmann's uniquely painted aircraft known to the Soviets? Can this be confirmed by Soviet or German sources?

If a bounty on Hartmann's life was a fact, and if the Soviets knew what Hartmann's aircraft looked like, this would suggest that Hartmann was the subject of, "special attention." That special attention may have involved specifically denying him credit in Soviet loss reports. We all know the power and the role that political officers and the NKVD played in the Soviet war effort, and that role included EXACTLY the kind of morale and counter propaganda campaign that would supersede the need to file accurate loss reports.

Given Hartmann's profile in Germany and the Eastern Front, Hartmann was almost certainly given "special attention" by somebody on the Soviet side.

On the other hand, Hartmann may have been ordered to over-claim as a part of a German/Luftwaffe propaganda effort. This is a distinct possibility as well.

One thing is certain:

Hartmann walked into Soviet captivity rather knowingly and more voluntarily than anyone else. He was given several opportunities to go to JV-44. He also disobeyed General Seidemann who ordered Hartmann and Graf to fly to the British sector to avoid capture by Soviet forces. Hartmann refused on multiple occasions to abandon his men who were not given the option to go west. (Not being critical, but others went West when given the same opportunity.)

Bronc

Usually anything relate to a "bounty" specially put on some ace's head is nothing but myth, and remember the air war of WWII was so large on scale that the achivement of individual aces, not matter how talent they were, would attract few attention from otherside, for example RAF pilots who fought in North Africa had no knowledge of Hans-Joachim Marseille in the war time, and RAF bomber command crews did not know anything about Helmut Lent or Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

If a bounty on Hartmann's life was a fact

That is just a myth raised by Toliver/Constable, in fact. A piece of war propaganda, nothing more.

[HGabor]

But then how could they verify most claims of certain, really honest pilots and 'select' and then change the losses linked to eg. Hartmann? I don't think they knew all the time where Hartmann was. Selective approval/change of the loss reports for some opponent pilots just doesn't seem to be realistic to me.
Gabor

[Broncazonk]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Maybe, maybe, but this leads too far and I am not in a position to make justice here. I can only use what is written. But then how could they verify most claims of certain, really honest pilots and 'select' and then change the losses linked to eg. Hartmann? I don't think they knew all the time where Hartmann was. Selective approval/change of the loss reports for some opponent pilots just doesn't seem to be realistic to me. Gabor

I appreciate all of that, and agree. And this is why I think we need a team working on this, a working group of experts who can address all of these tangential issues.

It's pretty clear there is more to the Hartmann story, perhaps 10-percent of it has been told.

Is there a possibility that Hartmann's over claims were part of a Luftwaffe propaganda effort?

Bronc

[HGabor]

Yes, there could be a still unknown Luftwaffe propaganda-effort to keep up the fighting moral, by creating a 'Superhero', like: "Gott (und Hartmann) mit Uns" :-))) to which Hartmann has willingly/unwillingly assisted. If so, there is still a lot to discover. (I do not know this, I am just guessing...!) But it is very unlikely that the war propaganda machine has worked with full speed only on the soviet side and hasn't on the German side.

Gabor

[Juha]

While Soviets had a good radio intelligence service, and they knew lot on enemy aces and might well have picked up many of the Hartmann’s wingman’s confirmation messages, but does anyone believe that the commissars in 1940s believed that in one day Western researchers or as Soviets termed them in late 60s anf 70s "bourgeois history falsifiers" will be able to visit their archives? And that Soviets had interest to shift through their combat and loss records just in case to blacken Hartmann’s reputation 60-70 years later, but not that of e.g. Lipfert’s. One must remember that Hartmann was only 6th LW ace to achieve his 200th kill in early 1944, before that he probably wasn’t so special to Soviets before that. And Egorov’s article shows that Hartmann wasn’t especially accurate claimer even before his 200th kill.


Juha