Any known JG54 claims in Kurland 16.02.45?

[Andrei Demjanko]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

What fighters could engage Fw190's of III./SG3?

Just a guess
As both JG 54 (Kittel's claim) and SG 3 flew operations in Dzukste area there are at least two options:

1) Fw 190's of III./SG 3 attempted to attack Il-2's and were shot down by return fire
2) they were shot down by JG 54 in error as apart from Kittel's claim there are at least two others

[Evgeny Velichko]

Thx gentlemen.

I will look through all fighter division reports and mark the areas of soviet fighetr patrools on the map.

It would be brilliant if we will have location and time of III./SG3 losses.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

I believe Kittel claimed one Il-2, and damaged two other(by memory), but was then hit by return-fire and killed....flying a Fw190. There has been various reports on his death, all differing. The most resent states that a German AA crew buried him, again by memory. TOCH has threads on the crash-site e.t.c.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Evgeny Velichko]

Johannes - different reports is a new for me.

Do You have them?

Direct crash site is not revealed in TOCH threads. But it is important for me, because I have two claims over Fw190, in 3-4km distance between them. Times of claims both match Kittel's loss. I am trying to find out, who shot him down.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Guys

I believe Kittel claimed one Il-2, and damaged two other(by memory), but was then hit by return-fire and killed....flying a Fw190.

For 190shap, there 4 Il-2, 1 was damaged (gunner wounded), but returned to his airfield. 3 others were scattered (because we very unixpirienced pilots), lost formation, but eventually get back to home territory.

For 502shap, there were 4 Il-2, 1 was damaged (gunner wounded), but all 4 Il-2's returned to airfield.

[Rottler]

Hello Steve,

thank you for your info (Post #10).

I have examined the Gen.Qu. loss documents of 1945 with regard to the WNr. block 638xxx. Beside your six 6-digit WNr. two more FW 190 F are quoted:

638010 3.2. FW 190 F-8 I./SG 151 Bauchlandung infolge Motorschaden 50%
(loss report from February 27, No. 54) and
638096 11.3. FW 190 F-9 III./SG 3 Notlandung infolge Flakbeschuß 20% (loss report from March 20, No. 32).

So in the Gen.Qu. loss reports two FW 190 F-9 are listed (638082 and 638096). I can't judge the correctness of these entries.

By the way the last documented FW 190 F-8 loss refers to the 63801010:
17.4. 8./SG 77 schwarze 4 Flugplatz Kamenz, durch feindliche Tiefflieger in Brand geschossen 100% KPV (= keine Personalverluste).

Regards
Leo

[Nokose]

One point to be made on this is that Otto Kittel didn't make the claims in person for this day. It seems to be common place for comrades on both the German and Russian sides to "pad" the score of a dead comrade for their last battle.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Actually in my experience regarding "padding" a dead/captured/wounded Luftwaffe pilots last claim, I find the opposite, it would seem comrades could not be bothered to do the paperwork!
My friend Bernd Barbas questioned Gunther Rall about his last claim, and why it unlike his first 274 was not on the mikrofilms when it should be, he reply was that he was hospitalised and didn't do the paperwork.......therefore it was unconfirmed, though it actually did fall!

Sometimes we here that so and so claimed such what, but was then killed himself, but though historically it is said, there seems to be no evidence, certainly no confirmation, or even official claim.

Regards

Johannes

[Nokose]

Johannes, unfortunately in JG 54 there was filled out claims for Beisswenger on the day that he died for him. Being an admirer of Beisswenger because of his accuracy (no one's score is perfect but his comes close) there was no way that anyone could have witnessed anything reliable in that battle. Even the Soviet pilots were way off in their claims. Found a day in which Nowotny lost his Rotte leader in a dogfight. He filled out 4 claims for himself and two for the dead pilot, all confirmed. Actually no Soviet fighters were shot down. Hahn by his on words was not even visible to his wingman on his last claim but the claim was confirmed.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Guys, please - to finish the mistery - what was a direct Kittle's crashplace OR what were a crashplaces for III./SG3 pilots?