Lvov-Sandomierz operation July 1944

[yogybär]

Yes, at least the 9.GIAD (Pokryshkin) was moved from Bessarabia northwards especially for the Lvov-Sand.-operation. They were not sent there because of being equipped with Airacobras, but because they were such a crack unit, I assume.

It's just strange, because in May/June '44 in the region of Jassy, there were also more P-39 then soviet-built types...

[yogybär]

The interesting thing is that 9.GIAD was based in the very South (Bessarabia) before they were sent for support of Lvov-Sando.

Also, later 9.GIAD was sent to a Belorussian front for support of the Berlin operation, but by then flew La7 afaik. That means, the VVS took over the german flexibility of moving units among the front to where they were needed.

Above that, still, it is really astonishing that
a) the guards units flew the P-39 with such success in spite of its bad performance.
b) such a big number of this "bad" planetype was concentrated in an important (offensive) area.

[Jack Sanders]

Originally Posted by yogybär

The interesting thing is that 9.GIAD was based in the very South (Bessarabia) before they were sent for support of Lvov-Sando.
Also, later 9.GIAD was sent to a Belorussian front for support of the Berlin operation, but by then flew La7 afaik. That means, the VVS took over the german flexibility of moving units among the front to where they were needed.
Above that, still, it is really astonishing that
a) the guards units flew the P-39 with such success in spite of its bad performance.
b) such a big number of this "bad" planetype was concentrated in an important (offensive) area.

Hello Jörg,
The 9 GIAD flew P-39s until the end of the war, although there may have been suggestions that they convert to the La-7.
As regards flexibility, I don't think there is much a of a case to be made for it on the basis of the 9 GIAD's experience, since it spent considerable periods away from the front and was conspicuously absent from many battles, most notably Kursk. To substantiate this, here is some data on the divisions' sucesses:
August-December 1942 in the Caucasus - 130 victories, March-June 1943 on the Taman' peninsula - 187 victories, 21 August-10 September 1943 in the Donbass - 130 victories, September-November 1943 on the Molochnaya river - unk victories, 10 May-5 July 1944 near Yassy - 128 victories, July 1944 during the L'vov-Sandomierz operation - 93 victories, 12 January-16 April in Poland - 30 victories, 16 April-8 May during the Battle of Berlin - 56 victories (All figures taken from "One 'MiG' in a thousand".)
The successes of the 9 GIAD are open to question, as they may have overclaimed wildly, just as many other VVS units. In fact, this is a topic of current discussion in Russia. Similarly, until the introduction of the La-7 in mid-1944, the P-39 was one of the two best fighter aircraft available to the VVS, along with the La-5FN. This explains why it gained such prominence, despite its relatively small numbers.

Yours sincerely,

Jack Sanders

[Graham Boak]

Me 210Cs had DB605s
Me 410s have DB603s

[yogybär]

Hi Jack,

Originally Posted by Jack Sanders

August-December 1942 in the Caucasus - 130 victories, March-June 1943 on the Taman' peninsula - 187 victories, 21 August-10 September 1943 in the Donbass - 130 victories, September-November 1943 on the Molochnaya river - unk victories, 10 May-5 July 1944 near Yassy - 128 victories, July 1944 during the L'vov-Sandomierz operation - 93 victories, 12 January-16 April in Poland - 30 victories, 16 April-8 May during the Battle of Berlin - 56 victories

Interesting figures, thanks! The "off-the-front"-times are explainable:
12'42--> 3'43 = conversion to P39
11'43--> 5'44 = ??
8'44--> 1'45 = conversion to Lavotchkin.
They did definitely convert to Lala's, because i.e. one of the biggest aces died during a landing accident (somersault during landing, "famous" problem on La5-7).
What is this MiG-book about?

Originally Posted by Jack Sanders

the P-39 was one of the two best fighter aircraft available to the VVS, along with the La-5FN.

Hm. Here I am not so sure, I always thought that Yak9's and even late Yak7's outperformed the Airacobra. On the other hand, the pure fact that so many Guards units got the P39 would support your position. I'll open another thread on that, so please don't post here.

[Jack Sanders]

Originally Posted by yogybär

Hi Jack,
Interesting figures, thanks! The "off-the-front"-times are explainable:
12'42--> 3'43 = conversion to P39
11'43--> 5'44 = ??
8'44--> 1'45 = conversion to Lavotchkin.
They did definitely convert to Lala's, because i.e. one of the biggest aces died during a landing accident (somersault during landing, "famous" problem on La5-7).
What is this MiG-book about?

Hi Jörg,
The second and third periods of inactivity illustrate my point. The 9 GIAD was effectively in a general strategic reserve both times, without there being any need for such a reserve and while some sectors of the front needed additional fighter cover. There was no conversion to La-7s, for reasons that are not clear, but one of the common myths about the 9 GIAD is that Klubov's (the ace you are talking about) death in that landing accident led to Pokryshkin forbidding conversion to other fighters.
The MiG book is effectively a piece of 9 GIAD promotion by a famous journalist, Yury Zhukov, which contains very little useful information apart from the above statistics.

Yours sincerely,

Jack Sanders

[yogybär]

Hmm... the information about the death of an ace (may be Klubov, don't know the name right now) is taken from Pokryshkins memoirs iirc. I have them in my bookshelf.

But anyway, how do you interpretw the "idling around"-times?

[kolya1]

According to Dmitriy Loza's book about the Airacobras of 9 GIAD, Klubov was indeed killed in an accident on a training flight with an La-7...

I had also read about the fact that a planned conversion on La-7 was cancelled after the accident, although the causal link between the two events remain unclear.

As a matter of fact, by the end of the war, AFAIK 9 GIAD had only P-39s and reportedly a few P-63s arrived in april 1945, though I don't remember any mentions of combat flights with this plane...

The times when the division was not at the front were "resting" time, while not engaged in strategic operations, the air units completed their staff and equipment and retrained for the next large scale operations...

It was linked with the idea of massing and engaging fresh units in massive numbers for major ops in order to get overwhelming superiority at the time of large breakthrough attempts...




P.S. : the success of the P-39 in soviet service must be linked to the different fighting conditions on the Eastern Front. At low-level, the P-39 was one of the best american fighters (in 1943, below 10,000 ft, it accelerated and climbed faster than any other american plane except the Corsair, according to comparative tests made in the US (in the context of the comparative testing of in service planes with a capteured A6M Zero)). And most of the operations were flown over short ranges...

[Jack Sanders]

Originally Posted by kolya1

I had also read about the fact that a planned conversion on La-7 was cancelled after the accident, although the causal link between the two events remain unclear.

The times when the division was not at the front were "resting" time, while not engaged in strategic operations, the air units completed their staff and equipment and retrained for the next large scale operations...

P.S. : the success of the P-39 in soviet service must be linked to the different fighting conditions on the Eastern Front. At low-level, the P-39 was one of the best american fighters (in 1943, below 10,000 ft, it accelerated and climbed faster than any other american plane except the Corsair, according to comparative tests made in the US (in the context of the comparative testing of in service planes with a capteured A6M Zero)). And most of the operations were flown over short ranges...

Hello kolya1,
It is my opinion that the cancellation of the conversion due to Klubov's death is a myth, as even a thrice HSU had no such powers.

The 9 GIAD and numerous other units were held back in reserve even while "strategic operations" such as the battle of the Kamenets-Podolsky pocket and the battle of Debrecen, for periods far exceeding those needed for re-training. This indicates that Stalin had special reasons to maintain a large reserve, quite separate from force regeneration needs.

Pinning down exactly what made the P-39 a good fighter in the East is difficult, but I would strongly suggest that it was a better fighter than the Yak-9. The reasons are its superior diving performance and zoom climb, which meant it could be used as a "boom and zoom" fighter of sorts. Its aerodynamics also led to less energy loss, helping vertical manoeuvrability. If weight reduction is factored in, the superiority of the P-39Q over the Yak-9M or D becomes even clearer.

Yours sincerely,

Jack Sanders

[yogybär]

Yes, indeed Pokrshkin doesn't write about the final refitting with La7, and I didn't find any otehr trace for this.

This is for sure (somehow) linked to the various problems which the La7 had at the start.

Anyway, now with the VVS-statistics, I can realitively good check wether my assumptions on OOB Lvov-Sando. are OK. WIll do that later.