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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#11
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Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
Personally, I want proof (especially in the form of contemporary documentation) whichever airforce is involved. Are you able to say how much original research Mr Murawski did for this book, and which sources he used?
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#12
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Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
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Failing to perform the diligence use logic and recall the mix of fighters available to the US 8th AF and further recall range limitations. Once you have grasped the fact that the P-47D short of the -25 (june 1944) was strictly limited to Meppen/Dummer Lake while flying escort, and Brunswick when untehered and flying a sweep. The reflect that even the P-38 could only get to Berlin while flying directly there with no weaving in close escort. Then reflect that only the Mustang could escort over Berlin, Posna, Brux, Schweinfurt and note the ORB for Mustang units in December, 1943 through May 1944 Next step, calculate the spread of Mustangs in coverage along a 100 mile stream inbound, along different target branches which spread the coverage out to one to two long range fighter groups per Division (250-400 bombers in a 30-40 mile trail - and figure out what the coverage/odds were when the controller put 200-250 fighters in a 5 cubic mile volume along the 40 mile trail. The Luftwaffe controllers massed different Gruppes to attack points lightly defended, and did so successfully. I don't have any images on photobucket so I can't show you what I mean. I can upload on aircraft of WWII or armyairforces.com.
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" The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein |
#13
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Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
I haven't see Murawski's JG 11 book, but I own copies of his JG 1, JG 27 Vol IV and JG 301 books, in fact booklets and those are based on rather limited number of second hand sources, there are 7 books in the bibliographia of JG 1 booklet, 9 books in the bibliographia of the JG 301 booklet and there is no bibliographia in JG 27 Vol IV but 34 endnotes at the end. Murawski seems to be very productive writer. At least his booklets are cheap and in the JG 27 booklet had mostly relied on Prien et al books on JG 27
Juha |
#14
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Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
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__________________
" The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein |
#15
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Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
Nick - if you will PM your email I will send you examples of Mission Summary reports (although Tony Woods has April 8, 1944 on his website.) and individual Mission Board maps.
http://don-caldwell.we.bs/claims/tonywood.htm http://www.box.com/shared/5bbh5gc971 Regards, Bill
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" The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein |
#16
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Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
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As far as documents.. well, I do not know where Mr. Murawski got the information for his books, other then First Hand accounts from Luftwaffe fighter pilots, Second hand accounts, Units diaries and so forth. Recent coversation with a good friend of mine: "So where are we? only talking about p-51? I don't think so, more then a P-51 threat in the skies of Germany. More then just Allied fighters. Its the whole. And pilots think.. what to do? Engage escorts, engage heavies? Sometime you make the decission, sometimes the USAAF makes the decission. Either way I thought, this might be my last day. Either way, you can't make the right decission. Either way you just fight to live." He went on about 2:1, 5:1, 10:1 ( including bombers ). But I think I missed the point of numbers. I just remember the sacrifice. My mistake and appologies for bring it up, carry on. ![]() |
#17
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Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
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One thing I will NEVER question is the courage or the skills of the German fighter pilot. Having said that I see a lot of comments that denigrate the skill and courage of the US fighter pilot - particularly in the early days of long range escorts when they were not only fighting as 'underdogs' in context of numbers of fighters - but also flying 5 to 7 hour missions in lousy weather and tempermental airplanes - then dropping to the deck to attack heavily defended airfields. The latter was twice as deadly to Mustangs as the 109/190 combined. Virtually 90% of the US Fighter Aces lost in combat were to German 20mm flak. Very little credit is given concerning skill in taking off in low visibility, assembling in an organized way, achieving rendezvous, flying through bad weather and landing in bad weather and poor visibity - particularly when the training was largely in clear skies in the US. As to achieving surprise or tactical advantage - only when sweeping ahead and catching LW assembling or taking off, or when landing - due to the extraordinary loiter time. Otherwise the LW controllers knew when the bombers were taking off, had a good feel for the fighters timetables and the fighters were always tethered to 0-5K altitude from the bombers and German fighters could normally assemble and climb an intercept course and time to be 2000-7000 feet above the American escorts and choose to fight - or not.
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" The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein |
#18
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Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
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Mr Murawski is a very prolific author which doesn't suggest that he would be able to spend a vast amount of time researching any given title. Now this may be unfair: he could have an unusually high capacity for such work; he could have a team researching for him; he may have spent many years accumulating research which is only now appearing in his books. Nevertheless, my experience and that of other researchers I know is that original research takes a very long time to do. |
#19
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Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
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I would like to reiterate the last statement on my earlier post, the value of reliable documentation to show the complete picture of events. I thank you for the source you have offered me and will definitely take it into account. |
#20
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Re: Which Units clashed with US. 4th FG in April 8. 1944?
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Quite a load of information you have posted drgondog, perhaps much more complex for me to comprehend and analyze in a single read =) To paraphrase and simplify things a little bit: number of bombers, escorts, their max operational range and distances were variables which dictated if LW fighters could achieve air superiority above specific points in the bomber streams or find themselves at a numerical disadvantage against US escorts given the statement that the combined bomber/escort armada always held a numerical superiority over the LW interceptor force. When it comes down to the distance issue in raids deep into Nazi Germany, I can see how pivotal was the boost 8th FC received in terms of longer-range escort fighters than the early P-47 marks and their steady built-up in small numbers from early 1944 all the way to early 1945 when almost all FG had converted to P-51s, longer-range P-47s and P-38s. I believe your last point about Hermann Goering and his ill-advised directive of not engaging escort fighters helped greatly in eroding the effort and effectiveness the LW could have achieved in this critical period of the air war over Germany when longer-range escorts were becoming available to 8th FC. I would to thank you for taking your time in your reply and subsequently offer you my e-mail address in a PM in case you agree to send me the files you offered Nick. Erick |
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