Photos 3-24

[F19Gladiator]

Hello Rick,
I find your photo question interesting why I post a few more lines on the subject.

15.12.1941 – 7.11.1942 was the period II/JG53 was based at Comiso, Sicily, according to Michael Holms website. http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg53.htm

I have however found no info that II/JG53 was involved in the action in Libya/Cyrenaica towards the end of 1941, the unit being instead active in the operations over Malta.

Does the photo you have show the JG53 “Pik As” emblem?
If not, it might be a 109 F-4 from 6./JG 27 of II/JG27 which was involved in the fighting in this area (Cyrenaica). If the aircraft was found at El Adem south of Tobruk by Christmas 1941, it was soon after Tobruk was retaken (Dec 1941) by the 8:th Army, following Operation Crusader.
It might be of interest to consider the information in “Jagdgeschwader 27” by Ring and Girbig, P.247. that in what must have been mid to end of November 1941, the II/JG27 had 30 F-4 and G-2, whereof six were received fresh from Germany. It is not unlikely that such fresh aircraft maintained the European camouflage scheme and colours while completely repainting aircraft hardly was the first priority, if even possible.

It is of course theoretically possible that aircraft had been transferred from JG 53 in Sicily to replace losses during the intensive fighting around Tobruk and this/these aircraft being flown in the livery they arrived in. I have so far not found any information pointing in that direction though.

Another photo of a JG 53 Bf109 F-4/Z “Yellow 12” of 6./JG 53 is published in “Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G & K Series” by Prien and Rodeike, Schiffer, P.29. Here captioned as being taken at “Comiso airfield in early 1942” and indicating it had a green/gray scheme.
Also a F-4/Z “Yellow 9” on p.30 of 6./JG 53 from Comiso “early 1942”.

Again, are you sure the photo shows a JG 53 aircraft?????????

II/JG 53 did participate in N. Africa but that was almost one year later, from November 1942, and in Tunisia. By then they were operating Bf 109 G.

I do unfortunately not have my most detailed JG 53 references at where I am now, why I find it difficult to dig deeper here and now.

I hope some JG 53 "Experten" can help you further. If not solved I will check out more when I get hold of the rest of my ref. mtrl.

[Parabellum]

Hi Maccullagh,

I'm not sure it's a JG 53 Me 109F...
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=250097415397
...why not a Me 109 F from 6 staffel JG 77?
The JG 53 ace of spade was black and, on the pic, the hue of the insignia looks more as a red ace of heart than as a black ace of spade.
Even the shape of the ace seems to point at JG 77, to my advice.
Any other opinion?
Cheers,

[maccullagh]

Hi,

I was not able to locate the photo I had posted some time ago but have attached it to this post.

Regards

Rick

[F19Gladiator]

Originally Posted by maccullagh

Hi,

I was not able to locate the photo I had posted some time ago but have attached it to this post.

Regards

Rick

Thank you Rick. Kind of you to post the photo. Being a bit busy now , but taken from the top of my head I would say that this is more likely a "Yellow 9" of 6./JG 27, Bf 109 F-2/Trop, given the place and time of the photo you refer to.
Camouflage is different from the F-4 on eBay as your photo rather show a desert camouflage of RLM 79 Sandgelb upper and 78 Hellblau (Himmelblau) lower fuselage. Probably whith the typical white spinner also visible. Difficult to tell from the photo but it should then very likely also have a white nose band just aft of the spinner.

[maccullagh]

F19gladiator,

Thank you for that information. Others in the past have had problems with the location of the white theatre band.

I think that it is adjacent to the + whereas most JG 27 had the band further back from the + which puts it into different time line from when my father was in North Africa.

AS I do not have access to much in the way of the history of the unit available to me here I will have to rely on yourself and others to provide information on the history of the plane pilot etc.

Regards

Rick Maccullagh

[F19Gladiator]

Can be that it is an F-4/Trop as II/JG 27 was equipped with these in Germany before transferring to Africa, the aircraft receiving it's paintwork while in Germany.

[maccullagh]

By all of what I have seen JG 27 would have been the most likely unit in that area at the time that the photo was taken.

In the minds of a lot of people the location of the theatre band is the problem, which I understand did not go to adjacent to the + until later in 1942.

You are the first to provide some information that the band might have been adjacent to the + before that time, which is interesting as it will tie the plane to JG 27. I consider this to be the most logical unit.

I have comfirmed the time my father was there from his service record from the Australian Archives. I did not find the photo until after he had passed away. Also most of his unit members that I knew had passed away before him.

If he was in North Africa in mid 1942 the plane would have almost certainly been Erich Kranske whom was shot down and captured May 1942.

It would be interesting to have the history of all number 9's of JG 27 during the period July 1941 to April 1942.

[F19Gladiator]

I have not been able to ascertain a detailed loss list with individual aircraft numbers etc for JG 27 during the time Nov-Dec 1941, coinciding with your information that this photo was shot in Dec 1941.
However, in the book "Jagdgeschwader 27" by Ring and Girbig, Motorbuch Verlag, 6.Auflage 1979, page 133, it is mentioned that two II/JG 27 pilots; Unteroffizier Kleinert and Leutnant Rockel were shot down and crash landed south of El Adem on Dec 8 1941, uninjured and becoming POWs.
The loss listing p.347 claim that Kleinert and Rockel belonged to 4./JG 27 which does not match with yellow tactical markings as 4. Staffel should have been white. One could of course have flown a 6. Staffel aircraft at the time for any particular reason but there is no written indication in that direction in this source. These two are the last losses of II/JG 27 to be recorded for 1941. The only other loss identified as 6./JG 27 in the period Oct-Dec 1941 from 6. Staffel in this book is Oblt. Franz Schulz who went missing on 17.10.41 !
Three aircraft from 5./JG 27 are reported as losses on 21 (Gefr. Kurt Paskowski KIA), 22 (Hptm Ernst ¨Düllberg injured) and 23 (Fw Hans Glessinger MIA) November.

A 5./JG 27 aircraft would have had red and not yellow tactical markings.

On the 21:st Paskowski was killed in a landing accident crashing into another 109. Most probably not the one to look for judging from the photo.
On the 22:nd there was a big air fight south of El Adem with P-40s and in the text it is referred to that Neville Duke probably shot down Oberfähnrich Waskott and Feldwebel Hillert of I/JG 27 which both became POWs on this day. Not pilots from II/JG 27 either...
22:nd of November Hptm. Düllberg of 5./JG 27 apparently showed up after being missing in action.
23:rd of November Fw Hans Gleisinger of 5./JG 27 went missing after having been seen shot down in combat near Sidi Rezegh.
23:rd Nov. Ltnt Scheppa II/JG 27 (Staffel ?) did not return from a mission, survived the crash lightly injured but later died in an Italian field hospital in a bombing attack.
23:rd also Hptm Lippert, Gruppenkommandeur Stab II/JG 27 went missing after reporting engine problems and took to the parachute. This is not his 109.
Lippert later died while under surgery in a British military hospital in Egypt.
Further, on the next day the missing Unteroffiziere Tanier and Reuter from I/JG 27 returned to their unit! At least five JG 27 fighters having been lost on the 22:nd according to the text, also matching with the names and accounts I refer to above.

Regarding the tail band: I am not familiar to what sources the others are referring to. Photos of Oberfeldwebel Albert Espenlaubs F-2 (Trop?) bellied in at Martuba, Libya, 13 December 1941 show a fuselage band close behind the fuselage cross. Published in many sources, among them also in "Deutsche Jagdflugzeuge 1939-1945 in Farbprofilen" by Claes Sundin and Christer Bergström, Bernhard & Graefe Verlag, 1999., p.32/33.
Taking a close look at your posted photo I believe it does not have a white band behind the spinner, only white spinner, just as Espenlaubs Bf 109 F-2 on 13 Dec 1941, when he was forced down and captured near El Adem. Your photograph also clearly shows the external stiffeners typical of F-2s at the rear fuselage, making the accidental breaking off of the tail unit due to flutter less likely.(Later, with the F-4, internal stiffeners were added)
Any way, late F-2s are very difficult to tell from early F-4s, not the least since early F-4s also can be seen with rear tail unit stiffeners as well as F-2s got upgraded to F-4 standards piece by piece to some degree.
Some might argue that the tailband is slightly too much forward for Dec 1941, but as well as the German grammar is very systematic but still full of exceptions, so is the Lw camouflage application! Espenlaubs 109 has a small space between Fuselage band and cross on his "White 11 of 1./JG 11.

I have put "trop" in brackets after "F-2" above as Prien and Rodeike claims in "Messerschimitt Bf 109 F, G & K Series", Schiffer, p. 18, that:";no F-2 Trop series is known. Individual F-2s were retrofitted with a sand filter, most likely in conjunction with other modifications, such as the installation of camera equipment."

It is true that in this period of the war Bf 109s could still be "custom built" and painted at the factory for a specific unit, combining this with the info that the 6./Jg 27 was equipped wit brand new F-4s while being re-equipped at Döberitz in Germany before leaving for Africa, one could expect a downed II/JG 27 in December 1941 to be an F-4, even if so an early one with external stiffeners. The first F-4s arrived to II/JG 27 by the end of August 1941 in Döberitz. F-4 being produced as from May 1941 ("Messerschmitt Recognition Manual", Marco Fernandez-Sommerau, Classic, 2004, P.53), one could expect the external tail unit stiffeners to have been superceeded by internal stiffeners. (Compare photo). On the other hand (same source) give at hand that F-2s were built in parallell until August 1941. could II/JG 27 have received a mix of F-2s and F-4s ?
I/JG 27 on the other hand flew F-2s during the end of 1941 why an F-2 of course could have been transferred to II/JG 27 to cover attrition.

Well I do not get any further tonight:
-Is it an F-2 or F-4?
-The Lw loss records I refer to can not verify a 6./JG 27 Bf 109 F at the time in area
-Was this a battle casualty or one of the a/c crash landed due to technical failure and not in the loss reports I refer to?
-Could it be one of the two II/JG 27 109 Fs crash landed south of El Adem on 8 Dec 1941 after sustaining battle damage, even if quoted as being from 4./JG 27?
-Can the aircraft be a 5./JG 27 109 and hence "Red 9"?

I am only a happy amateur, and book collector, why I am sure some more knowledgable guys can chip in more on this!
Who said history is boring by the way?

[maccullagh]

F19gladiator,

That information is great and is the best I have seen on this subject so far. Thanks very much.

Unfortunately my holidays come to an end and I am back at work tomorrow so I might have to go to ground for a few days but I will be looking in at this forum in a couple of days and chasing up your leads.

Regards

Rick