Breach of international rules of war?

[Graham Boak]

Hihotte: Altmark was breaking the rules in the first place by carrying prisoners: they should have been released into Norwegian custody. However, this was not the reason Hitler invaded Norway. The iron ore supply from Sweden was vastly more important, and it was necessary to prevent an Allied invasion that would have cut the route.

[Franek Grabowski]

Adriano, do you know if he meant a Polish pilot of the RAF or an American born Pole? Also, was the aircraft British or American, ie belonged to RAF or USAF?
BTW
Removal of markings is something different than applying false ones.

[RT]

Indeed the Norway invasion was on the way, at least that time the honor of the "nazi" is safe

remi

[hihotte]

@Graham, it seems that you read my posting the way it suits you. Of course the Nazis occupied Norway, next to other reasons, because they needed a safe way to get the iron ore from Sweden safe into the Reich. But the official statement of Herr Goebbels was the Altmarck affair. Even Raymond Cartier states this fact in his "History of WW II". Everyone was aware that this pretence was foolish, but as I wrote, the Nazis used it as
an excuse.

Cheers
Horst Schmidt

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Regarding the PR9 Camberra: it seems it was flown by a USAF base at Germany. The navigator was Lituan born and spoke fluent Polak and Russian. I do have no further information about. The pilot CAN not talk about, because he signed a document about SECURITY rules, etc...He talked only superficially about it. Even about Spying flights over South America! It is very interesting indeed and one wonder if this kind of invasion of foreign aerial space ocurred with more frequence than we can imagine...I do not know if the Russians did the same ( I mean flying with no markings at all ).
When we remember tha SKG 10 flew over UK with all undersurfaces and lateral Balkenkreuz markings painted in black, isn´t it the same? Even flying with the upper white crosses who would see? The British Flak gunners? A UK night-fighter crew? For me it is the same TACTIC...When we also remember that the British flew a Lockheed with civilian markings taking pictures and doing Reconnaissance work during the war, it is the same: luring the adversaries...
It is a very interesting topic for further discussing and arising of further breachs of international rules of war.
Cheers for all, friends
Adriano

[Brian Bines]

Brian I think your original question could only be answered if there had ever been any case law on the subject. According to a 'K' report in 1944 when the Germans were preparing a captured P 47 for recon. over the UK the aircraft was to be left in its original camouflage but given German markings to protect the pilot if captured. The KG 200 crews flying B 17's on agent dropping missions had Luftwaffe markings and captured crew were treated as POW's, but as already stated it is likely Graf Spee's Arado crew should not have attacked while in Allied markings. I suppose if an aircraft was operated in enemy markings there would be the question of who broke the rules of war the crew, or whoever ordered them to fly the mission. If the ruse was discovered would the crew have the right to defend themselves while in the markings of their enemy ?
The other point is that the rules of war are applied by the victor. For example I believe the German commandos who wore American uniform in the Battle of the Bulge were told providing they did not fire when in US uniform they would be treated as POW's if captured. This view was not shared by the US Army who shot many of those captured despite no opposition being offered at the time they were taken prisoner. In the book ' Commando Extraordinary ' it shows Skorzeny was put on trial for war crimes but the case was dropped when W/C Yeo-Thomas gave evidence that some British Secret Service operations were carried out in German uniform.
Altogether one for a legal expert to answer I think,

Regards
Brian Bines

[Franek Grabowski]

Thanks Adriano
Seems strange for me, a US crew flying Canberra PR.9 (and not B-57) and requiring a native speaking navigator, but well, weird things happened then. I am wondering if they were based at Wiesbaden.
Answering your question, I am awared of such anonymous flights by Swedish Spitfires and CIA's Skytrains, Flying Fortresses and Invaders, and I suppose there were hundreds of such unmarked penetration flights not only by the mentioned aircraft/services.

[rldunn]

Franek

The Regulations under the Hague Conv. (art. 23(f)) governing "improper use" of national colors were, during WW2, generally viewed as allowing use of enemy colors as a ruse of war as long as they were not used during actual combat. That was the position followed by a certain "North American superpower". The 1977 Geneva protocol seems to take a much more restrictive view of the subject. The same superpower is neither a signatory to that protocol nor does it accept that it constitutes customary international law. The fact that there may be differing interpretations of the law of war does not mean it is not taken seriously.

Rick

this true colors, if a british USA plane with german crosses on it, went over germany, on recon,and was shot down or crash landed, or what ever and the crew survived wouldnt they be shot as spys,as i heard a british pilot dicky lee in may 40 bailed out,in german lines , the germans were going to shoot him , as he was wearin his RAF overcoat, on thats all,no RAF<uniform,
but casuallly dressed,looky for him a german interrigator believed him,he then escaped back to his lines, but was killed" in august 40 ,chasing me 110s out to holland,ALONE,
gary>>>.nice subject, ive never heard of before,

[Adriano Baumgartner]

I do not know if it was true or not, but re-reading the book of G/C Johnie Johnson ( yes, the top ace ) "Wing Leader" I found that his Wing shot down a Bf 109 with RAF roundels. This ever happened? I saw several pictures of G-10 with RAF roundels, but the aircraft were on the ground: captured aircraft transferred for evaluation, like so many He 219, Ta-154, Me 262, etc...( Whatson ´s wizzards ). But, this incident - the interception of Bf 109 with RAF roundels happened after D-Day. I will find on the book and quote properly here later...
Yes, Franek, I think it was from Wiesbaden ( will check on his letters later ); but he wrote a PR.9. I even mentioned the special PR.19 Meteor, but he confirmed PR.9 Camberra. Strange, isn´t it? I mean, being USAF, they certainly would fly their own machines, not a foreign one...Do you have any DATA about those "American" built Camberras flying at Wiesbaden?
We will keep in touch...
Adriano