The Eagles Over Europe Project

[edwest]

Hi Larry,


Are you familiar with this book which claims to be an A to Z list of Luftwaffe airfields?


http://www.amazon.de/Flugpl%C3%A4tze.../dp/3866190549




Usual Disclaimer,
Ed

[Larry deZeng]

Apologies for intruding here, but unless I am terribly mistaken the Jürgen Zapf series of books on Luftwaffe airfields only covers those in Germany, region-by-region-Thüringen, Mecklenburg und Vorpommern, Hamburg und Schleswig-Holstein, Sachsen, etc.

“Mit dieser ersten Veröffentlichung in Buchform legt der Verfasser erstmals eine Zusammenfassung zur Geschichte der Flugplätze der Luftwaffe in einer Region Deutschlands vor.”

In regard to the “Gesamtverzeichnis” volume:

Lexikon aller Flugplätze von A -Z: Mit dem 2000 erschienenen ersten von inzwischen sechs Bänden der Reihe Flugplätze der Luftwaffe 1934 - 1945 und was davon übrig blieb hatte der Autor erstmals eine zusammengefasste Geschichte der Flugplätze der Luftwaffe in einer Region vorgelegt. Bisherige Veröffentlichungen hatten in der Hauptsache die Chronik eines Luftwaffenverbandes oder das eigene persönliche Erleben in der Luftwaffe zum Inhalt. Wenige andere Veröffentlichungen bezogen sich auf die Geschichte eines einzelnen Flugplatzes der Luftwaffe oder aber auf die Geschichte der Verkehrsflughäfen. Auf vielfältigen Wunsch aus dem Kreis der Leser nach einer Übersicht aller Flugplätze der Luftwaffe entstand mit diesem Buch ein Lexikon aller Plätze auf dem Machtgebiet des Deutschen Reiches am Vorabend des Zweiten Weltkriegs. Aufgeführt werden alle die Plätze, die zwischen 1934 - 1945 zumindest kurzfristig von der Luftwaffe genutzt wurden oder zur Nutzung vorgesehen waren. Der Lexikoncharakter des Werkes bringt es dabei mit sich, dass die aufgeführten Plätze nur knapp beschrieben werden. Jeder Platz wird mit genauen Längen- und Breitengrad-Koordinaten, der Klassifizierung (z.B. als Feldflugplatz, Fliegerhorst o.ä.), einer Beschreibung seiner örtlichen Lage sowie einer kurzen Beschreibung seiner Geschichte gelistet. Ein Bildteil mit Dokumenten, verschiedenen Luftbildaufnahmen und einigen Aufnahmen von Plätzen einst und jetzt, teils in Farbe, beschließt den Band. Die ausführlichere Beschreibung einschließlich der genauen Angaben der Nutzung durch die Luftwaffe sowie Luftbilder und andere Aufnahmen bleibt den Bänden der Reihe vorbehalten. Autor: Jürgen Zapf

In other words, it’s a summarized directory and index to the 2,000 airfields in the Reich (Germany and Austria) that the author covers in detail in his 8 or 9 previously published volumes.The airfields of France, Belgium, Holland, Poland, etc., are not covered, according to the many advertising blurbs and reviews that I have read for the author’s books.

L.

[Kutscha]

Is M. Holm's site wrong? http://www.ww2.dk/air/zerstorer/zg2.htm

It has I./ZG2 based at:

18.5.40 - 7.40 Neufchateau
7.40 - 9.40 Amiens-Glissy

In http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20France.pdf Neufchateau has I./ZG2 based there but Amiens-Glissy does not have I./ZG2 based there.

There is no mention of St Aubin-Thiberville that I could find.

[Larry deZeng]

Just 4 km SSW of Saint-Aubin-de-Scellon is the village of Thiberville. It is quite possible that the contraction "Saint-Aubin - Thiberville" refers to an alternate landing ground between these two villages that was never used. But it is not listed in the 38-page A.I.2.(b) Gazetteer of airfields in North and West France dated 1.9.1943 that has approximately 1,064 listings.

L.

[Larry Hickey]

Kutscha,

Thanx for your comments. I'm aware of the sources that say "Amiens-Glissy" as a I./ZG2 base during this period. However, Gerhard Stemmer says that there is no evidence that I./ZG2 was ever based there. He has provided a very detailed list of bases for 1940 that I gave in my other post relating to this subject last night. I consider Gerhard's data much more reliable information than the other sources. So we are back to trying to establish where in the St Aubin-Thiberville area the airfield was where I./ZG2 was based.

I./ZG2 is a very difficult unit as apparently most of their historical records, including most of their victory claims did not survive the war. We know less that half of those, and the "turks" (estimated) claims list created by Hans Ring have not turned out to be reliable. The detailed scores of a couple of the unit's pilots that have become known since these were compiled have served as a cross check and Ring's estimates for these same pilots have all turned out to be inaccurate . So it doesn't surprise me that even the airfield locations for I./ZG2 are also incomplete or inaccurate. With the EoE Project, we're trying to rectify this as much as we can, but the absence of data will only allow our team to take this so far.

Anyone who has items such as FB, or even NJG victory claims lists that take ex-I./ZG2 aircrew men back to their service with that unit, may be the only sources we ever have to improve the victory data for that unit. I keep hoping that someone will turn up a contemporary victory list, but as time passes and nothing surfaces, that is appearing less and less likely.

As I've posted before, we have similar problems with the 1940 victory lists for Gruppenstab and 14.(Z)/LG1, II./ZG1 (later III./ZG76), Stab, and II./ZG2 (ex I./ZG52), Stab, I and II./ZG26 and I./ZG52 (later II./ZG2), and III./ZG76 (ex-II./ZG1) making it unlikely that we will ever get an accurate and complete listing of "official" LW victory claims for the Zerstörer units during 1940. The only progress that we've made on this in several years are for individual pilots, such as Eduard Tratt for I./ZG2 and Elstermann for II./ZG2. Unless someone is sandbagging this info somewhere, a comprehensive resolution for any of these units now appears unlikely. If anyone has even individual scores from hard sources for any pilots from the units listed above, I'd sure appreciate hearing from them.

[edwest]

Perhaps this:


http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Frankreich.htm




Ed

[Larry deZeng]

According to the Luftwaffe "Air Offensive Against England" (Battle of Britain) OB found in the surviving records of 8.Abt./Genst.d.Lw. and reproduced in numerous postwar books, such as
Balke, Ulf - Der Luftkrieg in Europa: Die Operativen Einsätze des Kampfgeschwader 2 im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Teil 1. Das Luftkriegsgeschehen 1939-1941: Polen, Frankreich, England, Balkan, Russland. Koblenz: Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1989. ISBN: 3-7637-5883-6. Pb. 526p. Illus. Maps. Numerous appendices,
page 412, I./ZG 2 was based at Caen-Carpiquet with 41 Bf 110C on 13 August 1940.

L.

[Larry Hickey]

Larry, et. al.

Gerhard has looked at this post and has responded:

"The entries in my list are resulting from Flugbuchs. Furthermore there is an accident recorded for I./ZG 2 at St.Aubin dated 12.08.40 which is in contrast to the entry in the surviving records of 8.Abt./Genst.d.Lw. that the unit was on 13.08.40 still at Caen-Carpiquet."

This points out the problem of incomplete or inaccurate records regarding I./ZG2 during this period. I also note that Balke records that the Gr Kdr of I./ZG2 on 13 August was Hptm. (Eberhard) Heinlein, but we now believe that that is not entirely accurate. My information is that after losing the Gr Kdr (Ott) on 11.08, and the Acting Gr Kdr (Kubel) on 12.08, that the new Acting Kdr was Hpt. Dr. Rudolf Christians, who served in that capacity for some unknown period (probably not more than a few days at most) until Hptm Eberhard Heinlein took command sometime later in August. He was Gr Kdr until the until was disolved around 25.09.40. He was killed in a flying accident on 28.09.04 during a ferry flight from the unit's last base at Toussus-le-Noble, France, to Augsberg, Germany, when the unit's assets were being transferred into the night fighter forces.

The deZeng-Stankey LOCS data base says that Heinlein was appointed Gr Kdr effective 13.08.40, but Christians apparently served as Acting Kdr for some unknown period until Heinlein, who was the Sta Kap of 6./ZG2, could arrive and take charge. It's a small point, but any further clarification of this would be helpful.

Regarding the base problem, my suspicion is that I./ZG2 was in the process of moving from Caen-Carpiquet to St Aubin-Thiberville during this period leading up to mid-August, and the issue is when they officially closed out the Gruppe command post at the former and officially became fully operational from the latter. I don't know if that can ever be completely resolved, but clearly there would have been some transitional period involved between the two places, which there would always be when a unit moved from one base to another.

This really get into the info on another post that I have active here on this unit, as I think we've identified which St Aubin Airfield we're talking about, although its precise location in the vicinity of that village is still in some doubt in my mind. That should still be able to be rather precisely determined.

Who has anything further to add here?

[Larry deZeng]

I have no problem with Gerhard's reply. He covers all the bases and his thoughts and facts are accurate and make complete sense.

But the issue concerning Saint-Aubin - Thiberville is still open. During offensive operations, the Luftwaffe as well as other air forces could be "based" at one airfield while operating temporarily from an advanced landing ground (Absprunghafen) where all or elements of the Gruppe flew to tank up before staging their mission against the designated target. The aircraft at the Absprunghafen could be there for a few days or they could return to their base airfield on completion of the mission. An Absprunghafen could be just a fairly flat pasture or meadow that was temporarily stocked-up with fuel and/or ammunition sufficient for one or more missions. Only the Wartungs (servicing) echelon of the Staffel/Gruppe would accompany the aircraft to the Absprunghafen while the maintenance (Werft-) echelon would remain at the base airfield.

The sum of the aggrigate information that we have in this thread on Saint-Aubin - Thiberville points increasingly toward it being an Absprunghafen rather than a base airfield (Fliegerhorst), that is, if it was actually used at all. The absence of any listing for it in the A.I.2.(b) Gazetteer of 1 September 1943 largely substantiates this hypothesis.

L.

[Larry Hickey]

Larry,

Very helpful. However, when you look at the two places on a map, St Aubin doesn't really appear that much closer to the battle front over England than Carpiquet-Caen. If bomber escort missions are being flown anywhere from the Weymouth area to Brighton, including Portsmouth, then Caen would be closer that St. Aubin-Thiberville, which would seem to indicate there would be no advantage to "tanking up" at the latter AF. For operations east of Brighton and into the Channel narrows from Hastings to Margate, including Dover, then there would be some advantage to "tanking up" at SA-T. It seems like we really need more information on where the unit was actually operating to make sense of what was really happening.

While we're resolving this, the conventional LW reference sources, including on the internet, indicate that I/ZG2 was based at "Amiens-Glissy" during most of the Battle of Britain:. This includes on P.76 of the Vasco/Cornwell book "Zerstörer," which lists that base as the location where I./ZG2 was situated for the launch of the campaign against Britain.

Although the conventional sources have the unit during most of the Battle of Britain at "Amiens-Glissy". Gerhard Stemmer says "I have no reference that I./ZG 2 was at Amiens at any time..."

Gerhard lists the unit bases during the BoB as:

1) Caen-Carpiquet from 21.07.40 - 06.08.40
2) St Aubin-Thiberville from 06.08.40 - 28.08.40
3) Berck-sur-Mer from 08-28.40 - 17.09.40
4) Toussus le Noble from 17.08.40 -25.98.40.

At this point the unit moved to Vaerlöse, near Copenhagen, Denmark, and were adsorbed into EZGr to convert to night fighters.

As noted earlier, Gerhard is using FB and unit loss locations for his information. I have no idea where the "Amiens-Glissy" info is coming from. Can you or anyone else shed light on this discrepancy?

If you plot the above bases out on a map, Berck-sur-Mer moved the unit considerably NE up the Channel coast where it would be in an excellent position to conduct escort missions to the London area. This could certainly be an "Absprunghafen" for the unit. The move in mid-September to Toussus le Noble, which is just WSW of Paris, withdraws the unit from the immediate Channel coast, indicating that the unit was no longer conducting operations in support of the Battle of Britain after mid-September, and it was soon headed towards disbandment and rebirth as a night fighter unit just a little over a week later. Is that how you interpret the information? The Vasco/Cornwell book: "Zerstörer" P. 196 states: "7th September witnessed the swansong of Vollbracht's ZG2, whose survivors were all too soon adsorbed into the growing Nachtjagd..."

Who can add to this discussion? I really need to pin down where I./ZG2 was based during the Western Campaign and the Battle of Britain. Were some of the places recorded by Gerhard "Absprunghafen,' and not the unit's primary bases?