Luftwaffe Myths

[John Vasco]

Kildlawyrs,
Comparing apples and oranges, really. And you do lead a sheltered life if you think the only kind of music is that which comes out of comic relief.

And back on topic, if you want specific instances of 'our' side overclaiming, go check out the claims for 74 Sqdn. on 11th August 1940, mid-day action over the Thames estuary, or 1 Sqdn in mid-afternoon on 15th August... to give two examples. Of course the Luftwaffe did the same: ZG 26 for the same action on 11th August, and again for 18th August...

Rock on!

[Ruy Horta]

As the host I'd like to make a couple of comments.

Unfortunately much of this first attempt carries the hallmark of troll activity.

1. new member
2. anonymous (with a provoking name "killed lawyers")
3. calling out the community
4. presenting a "challenge"

The post isn't a question nor an effort to gather information, it is in fact a challenge. The question for us is to judge if it is worth the interest and time to answer. If YOU are genuine enough to warrant more than a raised eyebrow.

My instinct tells me that I'll probably have to ban you within a week or a month at most, but you deserve a chance like everyone does who participates in this community.

Lesson One, the Luftwaffe is more than just Jagdwaffe claims and Hartmann.

Lesson Two, distrust all propaganda from both sides of the Hill

Lesson Three, look at the war across the board, at each theatre at each stage, separate and in context of the whole.

Lesson Four, don't assume that the success formula for one combattant is automatically the same for all the others (dogma).

Final Lesson for now, don't assume anything about this forum. It is a community as varied as you'll come across, but with a higher number of experienced (research, writing, publishing) contributors and even a couple of WW2 veterans.

So "Killed Lawyers" lets see how you fare in this community. You've already lost a friend with the manner of your entry.

[piero]

I agree totally with Mr. Horta

piero

[Kildlawyrs]

I can only agree with John Vasco. Over claiming was indeed a problem on both sides. If one looks at the complexities of aerial combat it becomes abundantly clear why this this is so. The confused arena of a swirling fight coupled with the not insubstatial demands of flying the aircraft and all the time trying not to get shot down, would naturally make absolute confirmation difficult if not impossible many times. Also, it should be noted that it would be easy to have two (or more) aircraft attacking the same target and yet not be aware of each other's presence. It is not that the individual pilots were liars, far from it. Conditions simply were what they were.

I previously had mentioned Japanese ace Saburo Sakai. As an interesting aside, I met this gentleman back in the early 1990s. A warmer and more friendly individual would be harder imagine. He told me some rather interesting tales about aerial combat in general, as well as some philosphical ideas he had about the whole matter. For him, personal victories were of little consequence. Rather, what was important to him was being a good leader and bringing home his wing men unscathed (which he always did). Although he was officially credited with 64 victories, he himself believed the true number to be somewhere around 25. I bring this matter up, because air to air combat, whether in the European theatre or the the Pacific one, by force tended towards similarities.

Just a thought?

[Flitzer]

Hi kidlyrs,

You may be onto something. Here are the loss numbers for the Eighth AF in Europe, courtesy of USAF Maxwell Air University.
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a...b/Werrell.html

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to add the 9000 losses to the 15th AF losses. Then find and add in the Brit and Russian losses. If you come up with less than the 14,000 claims of the Luftwaffe you would be on track to find some overclaiming.

[Kildlawyrs]

Mr. Hurta:

My apologies sir If I have some how offended you. Such was not my intention. I had heard of the 12 O Clock High forum, and thought that this would be a good place to exchange ideas. I did not intend to "challenge" any one or even to throw down a gauntlet. Rather my aim was to listen to what others might have to say about this topic. I thought that it would be an intereting and legitimate discussion point here, but perhaps I am unfamiliar with how this forum works. If so, I would be grateful if you could enlighten me; believe me, I am not looking for a fight.

My anoymous name is a take on William Shakespeare and is not "Killed Lawyers". Since I had seen other members posting here anonymously, I was under the impression that this was in fact an accepted practice. I have no problem in posting my actual name if that is what is required.

Again, my humble apologies if I am unfamiliar with how things are done on this forum. From what I have seen, it seems like a rather knowledgable lot of players. Perhaps I can learn something while contributing something in return.

[F19Gladiator]

Dear 'Kildlawyrs',

As you seem to have studied the subject more than what your first provocative postings would lead one to assume, you have perhaps already read this:
http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/text.html

I suppose you are familiar already to Mr. Christer Bergström's acknowledged research easily accessible in his published books on the air war over the Eastern Front. This text contains bits and pieces of what other members have already commented on earlier and also underlines some of the factors creating the huge difference between the number of claimed victories by Luftwaffe pilots and Allied pilots, also discussing the differences between the Eastern and Western fronts.

As mentioned here earlier some of the Luftwaffe pilots, later to become some of the highest scoring aces in history, achieved small or moderate achievements during their part of their early career corresponding a normal combat tour (or two) by the USAAF aces.
Would this lead to the conclusion that the RAF and USAAF claims as a consequence would be fakes or regarded as hardly being possible to achieve in such a short time period when comparing with some of the excellent Luftwaffe aces with a slow start? Hardly, as the matter is so much more complicated!

Time in battle was definitely a very important factor which allowed the Luftwaffe aces to gain the excellence needed as well as the number of target opportunities to reach the very high number of victories accumulated. Their main feat and achievement was perhaps their ability to survive long enough to give them this skill level and number of opportunities presented why even luck is also a factor to count in!

I suppose you might also have studied the Finnish pilots and their achievements already, as they can claim one of the very best kill to loss ratios in WW2. The best FAF aces also by far outperforming the very best USAAF and RAF fighter jockeys. The Finnish war archives never became destroyed or captured why with the help of the opening up of former Soviet AF archives they now and in the future will produce interesting comparison material.
Another subject I can recommend you to study is the Hungarian pilot's performance and also compare how they performed in 1944-45 compared to Luftwaffe pilots in the same area of conflict.

Over claiming was as an occurrence on both sides, the RAF over claiming can even be argued to be worse in 1940 than with the Luftwaffe. Several interesting articles have been written on the subject only in the last few years, making the over claiming an established fact as such. This can, however, not lead to the conclusion that the victories of the highest scoring Luftwaffe aces are more unreliable than any other fighter aces in the annals of WW2 pilot achievements.

I am sure we will in time find adjusted victory lists of the highest scoring Luftwaffe aces on the Eastern Front which have been painstakingly researched and matched to data found in the now accessible former Soviet Red AF archives. We will never get to a 100% reliable listing and I do not expect them to change the achievement of the top Luftwaffe pilots dramatically in relative terms when compared to their peers in the RAF and USAAF as over claiming is not only connected to pilots of only one particular air force.
You might in connection with this remark want to enjoy another thread here at TOCH:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=661

Back to the top Lw Aces:
Flying 700-1000 and even up to 1500 combat missions and by using the average of victories/flown combat mission of the highest scoring 100 German, Finnish and Hungarian fighter aces will show you that by the law of numbers some victory tallies are not completely unrealistic.

Have a nice weekend! And don't forget to have an eagles' view on the subject

Best regards
Göran Larsson

[VtwinVince]

This is a joke, right? I haven't seen such a ludicrous first posting for awhile now. You might want to do some rudimentary research before belittling the Luftwaffe on a Luftwaffe forum.

[Oxby R]

Gentlemen – just a couple of thoughts. I think someone needs to highlight the fact that concepts like 'performance' and 'operational effectiveness' can be measured in ways other than simplistic one-on-one 'kills'. Seems many people are afflicted by this unhealthy interest in focussing on the 'micro' picture - i.e. the ‘kills’ made exclusively by individual fighter pilots - whilst often negating the immense contribution (and courage) of many other types of aircrew working together in teams. The bomber crews in particular - for my money I think deserve more exposure. They endured a far riskier existence and a higher chop rate at all stages of the war. And how many of them are remembered as heroes - aside of the Dambusters, I mean ?

For myself I can only speak about the nightfighter war with any authority. Here it was not so much a case of who was the better pilot - or even who was the more skilful flier. It was more complex than that. The aerial war at night used new technology, and radar of course to detect and locate the enemy. It became a case of who could creep up on whom without being detected and position oneself in such a way to be able to deliver a sudden and devastating blow. Less a case of chivalry - more a case of 'legitimate murder'. To be successful required good AI equipment, an aircraft with decent cannon - and a flight crew prepared to work together. Here it was again usually the teamwork, communication and co-operation between pilot and nav/rad and GCI which produced results. But for public consumption - it's just not that sexy a story, is it ? Neither is all this talk of 'top scoring pilots' and whether the figures stack up. It's kid's stuff really. Of course some of the figures will have been ‘adjusted’ upwards for reasons of propaganda - such as the perceived need to produce a hero on the home front when the war was progressing badly. People will always need to have something to believe in particularly when things all around seem to be falling apart. So, from a completely apolitical & neutral stance, I can quite understand why the Nazi regime needing to produce heroes in the same way as Britain needed nightfighter heroes such as John Cunningham in 1941. But gentlemen, contrary to rumour Cunningham’s eyesight was not improved substantially by eating vast quantities of carrots. Nor was he personally responsible for the little fabrication about carrots enhancing night vision– no, that was down to the British Government. Perfectly harmless you might say...

What is not perfectly harmless is a discussion which centres on ‘overstated or exaggerated kills’. What’s the point ? Doesn’t it make you feel just a little uncomfortable, even if they were ‘the enemy’ at that time ? Why should that be, I wonder? Maybe we feel uncomfortable with this, because most of the individuals involved are no longer with us - and are not here to answer for themselves. Whatever side they fought on, maybe it’s a little late in the day to point fingers, and destroy reputations of individuals when the regime they fought for may have played a significant role in the production of that so-called ‘war hero’ anyway.

Again, just my two pennith ! atb richard

[Brian Bines]

Judging the Luftwaffe solely on whether or not some of its Fighter Pilots overclaimed or not seems a little unfair. One should perhaps consider that the Luftwaffe initially led the way in Paratroopers, Air Landing of Troops, Air Supply, Glider assault, Target Marking, Air Sea Rescue, Stand-off Bombing, it also controlled Flak Units and had its own Field Divisions.