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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. |
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#21
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
MACR 3700 for Valley.
Engines are V-1710-91 & 89, serials 42-94(?)257 & 42-30275. Machine guns are .50 cal Browning M-2, Upper Left 376824, LL 376784, UR 376623, LR 41094(?)6. Cannon is Hispano M-1 20 mm 118673 The entire MACR block 3692 to 3717 is/was missing from Fold3 (mostly April 1944) I don't see any possibilities in the late Aug - early Oct 1944 period for P-38s. Anyone who appears to be still missing seems to have been lost well outside of Yugoslavia. Enjoy! Frank.
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Civilization is the most fragile ecology of all. |
#22
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
The original investigators did look at a few 9th AF losses. The MACR numbers show up on their list. I don't know if they were just going by loss dates or whether they really thought a 9th AF plane could end up in Yugoslavia.
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#23
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
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One was seen to crash into Adriatic, while it fell some 250km away in mainland. In other case plane was last seen in Germany, while it landed safely in Montenegro. It did happen that planes were misidenitified, especially if they lost formation. |
#24
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
I have a rather "wild" theory about this. Maybe the MACR is not "missing" but rather the MACR is wrong.
I think we may have a MACR for the name of the pilot, who was from the 1st, 14th or 82nd FG. He was probably lost around Aug to Oct 1944 (but we probably should be willing to expand that range). In the MACR, it will state either the man was lost (and may have been seen to crash) near Drvar or more likely, he was NOT seen to crash elsewhere. (I think if the MACR says the man was lost near Drvar the orginal investigators would have "found" him.) What is wrong with the MACR is the serial numbers. I think our man may have been flying a plane with a serial number in the range 44-23059 to 44-23208 and the MACR may also show a plane in that range. The mistake is that the wrong plane's info got recorded on the MACR. Maybe the pilots switched planes at the last minute, or maybe there was a records screw up. As an example take MACR 7192 for Lt Howard G Micheli, 1st FG, who is still MIA. He is last seen flying over the northern Adriatic on July 13, 1944. (The date may be too far away from our range) but he was flying 44-23147. He was not able to communicate via radio with other planes in his formation and he seems to just fly away on his own. He was not seen to crash and other pilots in his element thought he would be able to land somewhere in friendly territory. The other planes in his element landed on Vis. How many other MACRs can we find like this, particularly in the date range Aug to Oct 1944? |
#25
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
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I agree on your possible range of units and dates. I would check if there are some losses in such range, for which there is no MACR. |
#26
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
A slightly different approach and hampered by having no access to fold3 to check gun numbers or the like.
If the pilot of Drvar is (also) unknown, then perhaps look at P-38 losses in the wider area with MIA/FOD till this day. One example may be MACR 9074 with Lt Donald I. Lindberg in 43-28630, lost on 11 Oct 1944, 1st FG. "Last seen" 45 N and 16.20 E. Regards, Leendert |
#27
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
That might be a possibility, too. It is believed that Donald I Lindberg had an oxygen failure. He was last seen flying off into a cloud at 20,000 feet, the time was 11:20. He is still listed MIA.
He is last seen 'near' the area of the crash (about 45 miles away). His plane is listed as 43-28630 (MACR 9074) with engines A-045364 and A-045193. Guns are: 1029875, 1032764, 689502, 689712. 20mm is 118642. Now if these serial numbers are the "wrong" numbers, probably the only way we could prove it would be to find the some of the same numbers on another MACR, or find some of the original records of the group or find the aircraft record card and see that the plane was not infact lost that day. It is interesting that Joe Baugher does not list 43-28630 on his serial number list. I wonder if he saw something that was confusing enough that he left it off. He normally seems to get most of the planes that have MACRs. Also interesting is the time of day. The IDPF file gives the time of the crash, as stated by the civilian witnesses, as 12:00. What does not seem to match up (besides the date of the crash) is the weather. The MACR has 8/10 to 9/10 overcast at 22,000 to 28,000 feet. The civilians say the weather was clear. I wonder if the 45 miles difference would make that much change in the weather in that area. Last edited by RSwank; 28th July 2016 at 21:26. |
#28
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
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I've checked all cases with known MACRs except 9694 and 9696 but the serial numbers given in them are completely different. Case #16 could be of interest in our search, but unfortunately MACR 8341 does not list any serial numbers. However, there still are four cases where no MACR could be found yet. |
#29
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
5, 7, 12, 17, 18, 19 can be ruled out, I checked MACRs.
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#30
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Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.
I think 1-4 can be ruled out because the planes were seen to crash. I think the criteria for ruling a plane out has to be the the plane was very likely seen to crash.
6 I think can be ruled out because in the MACR a couple of witnesses seem pretty sure they could see the crash location in the water about 2000-3000 feet off shore. |
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