Ace vs. Ace

[Rob Romero]

http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.ph...%E4%E5%E5%E 2

What is their reaction to the reasearch of Dimitri Khazanov concerning Erich Hartmann (352), in which he claims that the world’s top ace only shot down 70-80 aircraft?

Have there been any other interesting conclusions (both positive and negative) about accuracy of the claims of other Luftwaffe Experten. Which Luftwaffe Experten do they recon was the greatest to fight on the eastern front?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

[NBE1942]

Originally Posted by Rob Romero

http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.ph...%E4%E5%E5%E 2

What is their reaction to the reasearch of Dimitri Khazanov concerning Erich Hartmann (352), in which he claims that the world’s top ace only shot down 70-80 aircraft?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

Rather complicated issue. Khazanov hurried to make this article. If I were him I would have collected more records on the subject than he did. First of all it deals with more or less reliable list of Hartmann's victories as TW list in the majority of cases gives unspecified "Laggs" as victims. The main occusation from the critcs was that Khazanov used incorrect H. claims and compared these claims that H. did not filed at all.

From my experience I should say that the majority of H. claims are questionable, as they could be scarcely found in Soviet loss reports and operational documents. Here are two examples. I have already posted them in Russian on the same Sukhoi forum some time ago. They deal with H. claims on the Aircobras:

1. Septembner 26, 1943. Area of Zaporozhje. stab, III/JG52 and IV/JG51 combating against units of 8 VA. The only division equipped with Aircobras in 8 VA at that time was 9 GIAD (16, 100, 104 GIAPs). Hartman filed two claims in the morning against Aircobras plus two more of that type were claimed by Hrabak and Obleser. 9 GIAD suffered no losses that day. In comparison with this pilots of IV/JG51 shot down real Soviet planes, e.g. obliteration of group of Yak-1s from 85 GIAP, clearly confirmed by records.

2. Second episode: January 8, 1944. Area of Kirovograd. Pilots of I and III/JG52 in the air against units of 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 IAD and 304 IAD), equipped with Aircobras. Fierce battle begun at around 15.00 (Moscow time) and lasted for approx. two hours. Groups of Yaks from 6 and 427 IAPs and 205 IAD's Aircobras took off first and immediatelly engaged formation of He-111s possibly from KG55, escorted by Bf-109s of I/JG52. On this first stage of battle none of Aircobras from 205 IAD were shot down or damaged in combat. One Aircobra conducted belly landing due to misorientation without battle damage.
On the second stage of the battle Aircobras from 69 GIAP/304 IAD entered the scene. Their task was pimarily to patrol the frontline and engage any enemy plane in the area. Thus, pair of Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev claimed one Bf-109 south-west of Kirovograd. Belyaev was himself attacked by pair of Bf-109s hunters off the clouds. With three bullet holes he conducted landing on the home field safely.
At the same time Hartmann claimed Three! Aircobras between 14.15 and 14.30.
Soviet side filed another Aircobra damaged and made belly landing. That is all.

Thus, in this two episodes from 5 claimed Aircobras, in reality one was shot up and one was possibly damaged by Hartmann.

[marsyao]

hi, could Hartmann mis-identificated the aircrafts he shot down, that kind of thing happened all the time,could he actually shot down Yaks or laags but reported shoting down aircobras instead ?

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hi! The small information I do have came from The War Diaries of Hptm Helmut Lipfert, when he says he shot down a HSO whose name he did not mentions and also a female Russian pilot highly decorated. Could the specialists confirm?
I will find the book on my home and post the corrects passages later, ok? Didn´t do that because I am unable now!
Bye
Adriano

[NBE1942]

Originally Posted by marsyao

hi, could Hartmann mis-identificated the aircrafts he shot down, that kind of thing happened all the time,could he actually shot down Yaks or laags but reported shoting down aircobras instead ?

That is impossible since I have collected all reports on those days. None of other losses fit in terms of time and place.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Hi! The small information I do have came from The War Diaries of Hptm Helmut Lipfert, when he says he shot down a HSO whose name he did not mentions and also a female Russian pilot highly decorated. Could the specialists confirm?
I will find the book on my home and post the corrects passages later, ok? Didn´t do that because I am unable now!
Bye
Adriano

Adriano,

something is wrong with that remembrance as well. On the mentioned day (IIRC 27 Oct, 1944), there were no lost HSU Soviet fighter pilot over Hungary. Maybe he confused the events with a former dogfight (but to me, that book is still the best German fighter remembrance from WW II, a fine book from a fine pilot).
BTW I found a HSU Il-2 pilot as well, who was shot down by Lipfert over Hungary (definitely by him).

[kalender1973]

According http://www.luftwaffe.cz/beisswenger.html Beisswenger was shot down by Sr.Lt. Kholodow on 5th march 1943 (rammed)

[Evgeny Velichko]

There are many mistakes in Kachas webpage

2 Csaba Becze: who was that Il-2 pilot? I will try to find him in russian sourses...

[Nokose]

Eugen, on the victory of Rall over Fadeyev on 05May43. How was the time problem solved as the translator didn't give a clear idea? The time put on the thread for take off of 16 GIAP was 13:50 (Moscow time) with return at 15:15. Rall's time was 12:09 (Berlin).

[Nokose]

Found this on www.airforce.ru . St. Lt. Avday Aleksandr Fedorovichs, 153 IAP was attacking Ju-88's in the area of New Usman, Voronyezh province. Fw Franz Schulte 6./JG77 started his attack on Fedorovichs who turned to meet him. Both a/c collided and Fedorovichs airacobra exploded. Schulte went down for a bellylanding and became MIA. Schutle had 46 victories and Fedorovichs had 7 victories (received the HSU for the ram.).