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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#21
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
I will not add much to the discussion, except one personnal opinion and one question.
I have always thought that the losses reported in the "Bestand und Bewegungsmeldungen" were not only total losses, but all aircraft destroyed and damaged enough to be repaired outside the unit. Can someone confirm this from official Luftwaffe documentation ? |
#22
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello, Laurent.
You are correct. I will type down some info on this later ln tonight. Regards, Andreas B
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Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! |
#23
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hi, guys.
Had to work last night = no Luftwaffe research. With regards to your question, Laurent, the distinction is clear (and I include the German original text so that we do not get confused): First on damaged aircraft: Quote:
So to make a long comment shorter - the number of losses reported in the Bestands- und Bewegungsmeldungen consist of all losses with and without personnel losses involved and an estimated damage of above 10%. I cannot repeat this often enough - smaller damages which were estimated by technicians to be below 10% was NEVER reported unless by error - and if they were erronously reported, they were often stricken by a correction report later. So the 'missing' losses in the Luftflotte 4 records would with a high degree of probability be losses of aircraft only, no personnel injuries etc involved. I have attached a screenshot of an example of a report I have a copy of which is used as an example for the units on how to fill out the report - so the units etc can be masked - even if it seems the Ju 88 Werknummern are valid... I also have other lists which is 'the real thing' for a given unit, but as this is going to be used in the upcoming book by Kjetil Åkra, me and a couple of authors which I can not disclose at this time, I can not publish it here now. Regards, Andreas B
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Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! Last edited by Andreas Brekken; 3rd April 2014 at 10:28. Reason: Typos |
#24
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hi Andreas,
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By the way, too few 'Er' remarks are in the 'Ers.Erf.' column (means that replacement is required for the damaged aircraft) in GQM returns for Luftflotte 4 on Apr.-Jun.43. It seems the units reports has ignored this column in the most cases. If this guess is incorrect, the difference between number of losses in GQM returns and in Bewegungsmeldungen is far higher than 60+ % in my calculation posted some days before. Quote:
One of the possibly exceptions (from Chronik KG27 Bd.5 by Walter Waiss, s.115-116): 14.(Eis)/KG27 He111 1G+KY 28.04.1943 Start from Kirowograd at 21:00, shot down by AAA fire. Lt Karl Schmidt (FF) and Fw Heinz Hoffmann (BF) became the POWs in Lager 27. Humpe (BO), unnamed BM and war correspondent Lt Schäfer (as BS) KIA. As far as I know these losses are absent in GQM and NVM returns Whether the some documents like in your attachment for the Luftflotte 4 on the timeframe in question has survived the war? [/quote] Best regards, Andrey |
#25
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
I have this loss on another day (according to WASt info):
1943-08-09, 14./KG 27, He 111 H-16, 160277, 1G+HY, (Belgorod - Kursk), Flakbeschuß um 20.57 Uhr. Bruch 100 %. Flugzeugführer Lt Schmid, Karl, vermißt Beobachter Uffz Humpe, Hannes, vermißt Bordfunker Fw Hofmann (Hoffmann?), Johann, vermißt Bordwart Uffz Derfert, Otto, vermißt Bordschütze (Kr.Ber.) Lt Schaefer, Helmut, vermißt Have I made a typo or misred the documents or what? Matti P.S. If you look at the book of Waiss, you will find this loss also on page 189. The info on page 115-116 must be an error. |
#26
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello Matti,
thank you! You a right undoubtedly, Waiss has placed that loss twice. Moreover, on page 151 Hoffmann and Humpe are listed in Ist-Bestand for 24.Jun.43, i.e. two months after their "loss" on 28.Apr. Best regards, Andrey |
#27
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello.
This loss is in the GenQu loss list: http://www.aviationhistory.no/ref_db...?lossid=123287 Regards, Andreas B
__________________
Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! |
#28
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello, Andrey.
All losses with a loss percentage ABOVE 10% was to be reported - with no regards to if it could be repaired by local means. If it could be repaired locally, there was to be no request for Ersatz and the aircraft would be treated as still on the strength of the original Halter. We can find these aircraft all over the loss records, with no 'Er' marking in the loss record. It is obvious when you have studied these reports for a while that the local capabilities varied largely - and some units would request Ersatz for aircraft with far lower damage percentage (or it could be the type of damage sustained) than others. Mathematically we could set up an equation for this for a given month - with groups or sets that are partially overlapping. One group are the aircraft reported to GenQu 6 Abt which SHOULD be all sustained losses with a damage percentage estimated at over 10%. Thus the only situation were we should have discrepancies are where there has been corrections not carried over to another statistical level of aggregations (which could happen - as the Bestands- und Bewegungsmeldungen were filed on a given date - and correction coming in a year later would not be taken into account). (I just wish I had located a damage assessment form - someone out there must have kept at least one! Problem is that these were most probably kept at unit level and most technical unit level documentation for the Luftwaffe was bombed and burnt. My hope is to find something in the UK and/or US archives.) In cases where there are larger discrepancies and we suspect that the detailed 'line by line' reports are not exhaustive - we should take into account the Bestands- und Bewegungsmeldungen were we will then have to know what aircraft that would be in them - namely all aircraft that the unit had to replace which could include all the above - but where the number could be lower than the total aircraft involved in an incident - because a given number of aircraft could have been repaired at the unit or by the means I mentioned in my second to last post. The numbers of 'losses' if we are to call it that will the for a given unit and period be at least as high as the numbers relayed by the Bestands- und Bewegungsmeldungen and the mimimum number being the number of registered entries by the GenQu 6 Abt. The problem is that it seems that when we talk about 'losses' or 'claims' there are no real interest in differentiating these on either 'side' of the discussion. If we say that a loss is only counted when the crew is dead, the aircraft beyind any kind of repair - then it would be quite easy - and the losses few. Another thing which I find that some researchers seem to be unable to get is the '10% rule' - if the damage is very small - lets say a couple of small calibre rounds penetrating the skin of an aircraft - this would never be reported, or a undercarriage leg collapsed but there were no structural damage. Someone could state (I have seen it done) that 'I have a photo of a Luftwaffe aircraft with a flak hole in the elevator and the WNr xxxx - and this is not showing in the GenQu reports - so the Luftwaffe loss numbers are falsified and can not be trusted at all!'. This is lack of knowledge - but sadly it seems that to try to enlighten those 'researchers' is futile - and I have refrained from it lately - not worth the time spent. And then we have the 100% losses - most of them listed as missing (Vermisst). For some reason people get very upset when a 100% loss (missing) or even 100% loss shot down reappear in the lists. But on all fronts the front line moves. A belly landed aircraft due to fuel starvation, overheating or whatever - recovered within days or weeks would certainly be repaired! And counted in the large aggregated statistics as two losses if it was damaged again. I believe that an important task for all the professional, semi-professional and amateur researchers of the WWII is to try, with an open mind, to understand the systems, and also acknowledge them. In my case I have a detailed knowledge down to the point that if there are obvious errors in the GenQu 6 Abt lists - Stabsh. Scheibert-Ruda, Obergefreiter Wikowski and Stabsh. Rakofski have been slacking in their duties (or some of the units have not delivered their reports). If there are problems with the prosessing of the NVMs (Vordruck II), we would have to ask Fw. Stiemerling or Stabsh. Prüsse about that! But more of all that in the upcoming article. Regards, Andreas B
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Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! Last edited by Andreas Brekken; 4th April 2014 at 11:06. Reason: Clarification v2! |
#29
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello Andreas,
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About the rest of questions a bit later today. Last edited by Andrey Kuznetsov; 4th April 2014 at 11:48. Reason: typo |
#30
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello Andreas,
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But as the great discrepancy between GQM returns and Bewegungsmeldungen exist, it require explanation. Nothing about ‘falsification’. The attempt to establish a real state of things only. Quote:
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I’m looking forward to your article Regards, Andrey |
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