Saburo Sakai

[Flavio]

Dear Michael,

I don't speak Japanese too!

Anyway when I bought this book years ago I also bought a Japanese dictionary; thanks to it, leafing page after page (at that time Google translator was a dream...) I was able to understand the meaning of some ideograms (kanji). In detail the first shared victory is the B-17 on Feb 8th, the second the B-25 on May 14th...look at the ideogram at the end and you'll find the other shared. The ideogram on May 17th means "probable" (on that day Sakai claimed 2 P-39s sures + 1 probable) while the second B-26 on May 28th was "damaged".

focusfocus thanks for adding details; you are right I checked my copy of "Winged Samurai" where is quoted that the list has been taken from Sakai's logbook (unfortunately I gained my second-hand copy of this book some times after the Japanese dictionary....). However I think also Sakai's logbook is an "official" document even if there are discordances if compared to Tainan KODOCHOSHO.

Flavio

[focusfocus]

Hello Flavio and other gentlemen

for me,it's THE PROBLEM to continue has to set in reference years after years documents "official" as base by forgetting to use the serious truths.

let us take the example of 12/5/42

tainan kokutai kodochosho:6 pilots of 2°chutai engaged 10 airacobras at 0820hours.

Shiro Kawai,Hiroyoshi Nishizawa,Takeichiro Hidaka,Toshiaki Honda,Tamio Kobayashi, AND SABURO SAKAI JOINTLY claimed 2 P-39 shot down and one probable,along with 2 P-39 damaged on the ground.in reality only 1 P-39 lost(36°Sqd USAF 2/Lt Robert M. Wilde ).

now, what do we make?we leave an alone victory for Sakail as indicated by his log book since X years and why Sakai and not Kawai or Nishizawa.......
or as we say in France:"remettre les pendules a l'heure" more or less in english set the record straight.

in this case 1/6 victory for every pilots in the interest of equity and historical reality and no 1 victory for Sakai alone
no?
regards

[Stig Jarlevik]

While an interesting discussion in itself I feel it is rather futile.

Being a totally non-Japanese speaking /reading individual this is what I have picked up through the years.

I doubt there ever was an 'official' Japanese victory board (or its equivalent) either during or after the war. You will not find any official Japanese score list sanctioned by any Japanese Government body. What we have are historians and enthusiasts trying to put Japan on par with the rest of the scoring nations during WW 2. If this has changed I would very much like to know where and how this 'official' body in Japan works and on what grounds it bases its findings.

The Japanese never to my knowledge acknowledged any scores or aces during the war. Presumably the leadership, schooled in old traditional warrior values such as Bushido and Samurai, saw little use in doing that.

Rather naturally this provoked a reaction at the front and and at local level (unit), something was felt to be done. This probably ensured that each unit kept records and unofficially gave credits in a rather hap hazard way since no real set up rules existed. No doubt differences also existed between units not to mention between IJAAF and IJN.

Neither did there exist any real post mission control. What a pilot said stood. No one question if 'his word' was correct or not, if witnesses existed etc. It was a question of honour, of not loosing face etc.
Hence the very varied listings which keep appearing over and over again.

As far as I know, shared victories did not exist during the war. If six pilots took part in a shoot down, each pilot was entitled to one victory. Why has Sakai for example only one claim in his log book, but in other sources two?
Most probably the compiler of victories deemed his presence enough for him to be 'allowed' also the second victory (if two victories was the final score).
This also ensured that first record keeper did it one way and second one in a different way. No set rules existed, so these discrepancies is what we have left.

Also the practice with shared victories is interesting. Only Japan and France (in 1940) had the system that all pilots involved in a shoot down received a full credit for the downed aircraft.

We also have to remember that when it came to Japan they had a very, very different approach to the war and even on an individual level this effected pilots rather differently then their western foes. Trying to approach such a system with a western way of seeing things will always fail. For instance we know the Japanese pilots made extreme claims during the war, especially in the beginning, and to me it is more interesting to search for an answer as to why they did so, than trying to find out the relation between claims and true losses and so on.

I am also quite certain that regardless if Sakai (for example) only scored 4, 14 or 64 victories, none of us would have stood a chance meeting him in the air....

Cheers
Stig

[mars]

focusfocus, it is obviously that kill was officially assigned to all Japanese pilots who participated in this combat regardless, French airforce in WWII had a similar policy, a shot down would be assigned to all pilots participated in the mission, sometimes assigned to entire squadron, regardless whether individual pilots fired a shot at that down enemy aircraft, a "kill" would be an achievement for a unit, not individual, hence the difference between unit record and the pilot log book

[mars]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Also the practice with shared victories is interesting. Only Japan and France (in 1940) had the system that all pilots involved in a shoot down received a full credit for the downed aircraft.


Cheers
Stig

The "involved" was very loosely defined, you would only need to be there, and you do not need even to fire a shot.

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Flavio

Dear Michael,

I don't speak Japanese too!

Anyway when I bought this book years ago I also bought a Japanese dictionary; thanks to it, leafing page after page (at that time Google translator was a dream...) I was able to understand the meaning of some ideograms (kanji). In detail the first shared victory is the B-17 on Feb 8th, the second the B-25 on May 14th...look at the ideogram at the end and you'll find the other shared. The ideogram on May 17th means "probable" (on that day Sakai claimed 2 P-39s sures + 1 probable) while the second B-26 on May 28th was "damaged".

focusfocus thanks for adding details; you are right I checked my copy of "Winged Samurai" where is quoted that the list has been taken from Sakai's logbook (unfortunately I gained my second-hand copy of this book some times after the Japanese dictionary....). However I think also Sakai's logbook is an "official" document even if there are discordances if compared to Tainan KODOCHOSHO.

Flavio

...you're right !
How fascinating !

Michael

[BruceMk11]

4.42 to 10.42 = 374 claims ( all in the official "kodochosho") rabaul/new guinea 139 real losses US and BRITISH

What BRITISH losses???

[focusfocus]

oh-oh- stay cool Gentlemen

I didn't say that!.I'm just asking!!
you seem very nervous? no?
Of course that I know that the japanese victories are not shared but I am ONLY surprised when we compare the claiming,they are so different! and by wich magic trick we arrive at the scores today.
as no score official exists,why do not make a new update list,after each can drawn his conclusions cool very cool.

I well know about the french system(I am french),it makes sometimes debat

good day

best regards

[focusfocus]

Bruce mk11

sory,sory unforgivable mistake,I wanted to say AUSTRALIA not british of course

[mars]

Originally Posted by focusfocus

oh-oh- stay cool Gentlemen

I didn't say that!.I'm just asking!!
you seem very nervous? no?
Of course that I know that the japanese victories are not shared but I am ONLY surprised when we compare the claiming,they are so different! and by wich magic trick we arrive at the scores today.
as no score official exists,why do not make a new update list,after each can drawn his conclusions cool very cool.

I well know about the french system(I am french),it makes sometimes debat

good day

best regards

Let us say there were four Japanese pilots A B C and D, they met two US aircreafts, A and B immedietely bounced the Americans, C and D remained above for cover, A and B both opened fire, and one US aicrafts went down, after retun the base, A and B submit their combat record, in which both claim sho down that US aicreafts, their command compile these report and credit one kill share by A, B, C, D, and recorded it inot unit combat diary, which later beame part of official report. At the mean time, in their personal flight log, A and B each claim himself shot down that US aircraft, and since most of Japanese units did not admit individaul score, hence no one would approve or disapprove each claim, so whatever A and B wrote in the flight logs were remained unofficial, hence the difference between official and individual record