Clostermann shot down?

[CJE]

Franek, "Le Grand Charles" is rather an hommage to Charles De Gaulle.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Have you ever read on an air combat report the code of an E/A shot down?
Well, we do have quite a lot of examples:
1- Mike Boleslaw Gladych was twice shot down by a German fighter with the number "13".
2- I remember seeing on a Discovery Channel documentary about the ACES an American ace and F-86 Sabre pilot mentioning a Mig 15 he shot down over Korea that has a Dragon painted on its side.
I do remember other actions but had to check on my books to put correctly here. It is not unusual, if pilots came in very close to their victims before opening fire...( If my memory do not fail me, a certain Dunn - an American who fought with the RAF during the Battle of Britain and who later wrote a book of his memories remembers shooting down a Me 109 with brownish codes on its sides...I will check to post later here ).
Cheers Adriano

[Fairlop]

Have you ever read on an air combat report the code of an E/A shot down?

On 19 August 1941 Oblt. Johannes Schmid of Stab/JG 26 claimed one Spitfire, and clearly noted in his Abschussmeldung the code of downed machine.

Regards,
Michal

[Chris Thomas]

Don't bother checking Adriano. We are in red herring territory.

I am well aware, Franek, of the deficiencies of RAF Squadron ORBs, having spent a considerable part of the last 30 years comparing them with other documents. However, what do we have here? An alleged combat on 21 April 1945 in which 2 or 3 Tempests were shot down/damaged and a Fw190 claimed destroyed.
Any note in a Tempest Squadron ORB? None.
Any RAF combat report? None.
Any mention in the '2nd TAF Log of Casualty Claims, Assessments and Losses'? None.
Any Tempests other than McKenzie's lost that day? None.
Any supporting documentation from the purveyors of this yarn? None.
Oh yes, and a pilot from 33 sqn involved, despite having been killed 9 days earlier. Mmmmm.

[Franek Grabowski]

Adriano, the story of Lucky 13 is a bogus to the best my knowledge. It does not change the fact in some circumstances airmen were able to provide astonishing details about their opponents.
CJE, then it is a different matter, but I am afraid we will not learn the entire truth in the nearest future. I am wondering if his family had pre-war ties with de Gaulle, but perhaps it will be more convenient to discuss it via email.
Chris, you are absolutelly correct, but if we want to dismiss such a story we should not refer only to ORB. Perhaps this is a simple case of mistaken dates - 12-21 - but it could be more complicated. As I have noted, Clostermann's log book is in a museum, so it should have an entry for 20 or 21 April. I cannot believe the ace would invent a story of being beaten up by Germans if this had never happened. Otherwise you do not mention Opflash Reports nor Authorisation Books, those being more primary sources.

[Brian Bines]

With the Orkney case the combat report is for P/O J. Blair DFM ( Ian Blair in The Big Show ) and F/L W. Bennett and as the 1951 edition of The Big Show credits the kill to Blair. The combat report also mentions the 109 had the letters A K or A H painted faintly on the fuslage in black ( NVM gives A6+XH ),

Regards
Brian Bines

[Chris Thomas]

Franeck, I have just listed several sources other than the ORB which should have produced evidence of this alleged encounter, but do not. Therefore I am not "only refering to the ORB".

Furthermore, in my British edition of 'The Big Show' (1951) there is no record of any action after the combat of 20 April until the attack on Schwerin. And by the way, 3 sSn did indeed attack Schwerin on 1 & 2 May but Clostermann is not recorded as having taken part. He did take part in an armed recce the next day and in the afternoon led an attack on Grossenbrode. However there is no sign in RAF records of the "6 out of 8" Tempests lost attacking Schwerin (as claimed in 'The Big Show'). 3 Sqn lost just one in the first 3 days of May!

[Franek Grabowski]

Chris
To make it clear, I do not put in doubt your research, but you must have in mind all the problems arising with documents. At last you have written some comments to the article written by me and Wojtek.

Any note in a Tempest Squadron ORB? None.

You perfectly know how inaccurate this document can be. A note that an airman has married, even if he was missing believed killed since three days, missing sorties, discrepancies between F.540 and F.541, and so on. Tom Neil put it perfectly in his preface to The Forgotten Months.

Any RAF combat report? None.

There would be no PCR (Form.F) if no claim was made. There should be Loss Reports or MACRs, but they are either destroyed or unavailable.

Any mention in the '2nd TAF Log of Casualty Claims, Assessments and Losses'? None.

The Log was based on Opflashes send every evening to respective command. If airmen were FTR and reported OK, this well may have ommit informations about damages.

Any Tempests other than McKenzie's lost that day? None.

If aircraft was not Cat. E, it could have been easily misreported, mentioned on another date, etc.

Any supporting documentation from the purveyors of this yarn? None.

Well, have we seen Clostermann's Log Book?

Furthermore, in my British edition of 'The Big Show' (1951) there is no record of any action after the combat of 20 April until the attack on Schwerin.

That is the valid point, the question is what was in the original French edition. I have heard that the translation is much shorter, is not it?
Otherwise this might be the point. I know a case of a certain pilot who wrote his memories but was unable to have them published. He was told more sex and action is needed. He could not add sex because of his wife, so added some action instead.
Well, I am not putting in doubt your knowledge and research. I am just noting that quite often people like Clostermann are accused of confabulation, but on a closer look their stories could be closer to the truth than initially expected. I recall a story of an airman describing a rather long dogfight with a Me 109, when he gradually gaining on him in sharp turns, and finally noticing his bursts hitting the target. His PCR clearly described this as a typical hit and run attack. Fortunatelly, his cine camera film survived to prove PCR was not telling the full story!

[kaki3152]

The episode is present in the latest UNABRIDGED version of the "The Big Show" which came out a few years ago. It appears that the version i had been reading for years was the ABRIDGED version which left out a lot of detail. A much better book.
Among the new stuff:
It starts with his stint at Cal Tech as a college student before coming to England,whereas the condensed version starts with him entering Spitfire training. And a whole lot more
Whatever, the facts are, there no better books on air combat over Western Europe. Clostermann never let facts get in the way of a great story.

[Chris Thomas]

My point is Franek, that despite what would have been a significant event, with claims and losses on both sides, not a shred of supporting documentary evidence has been located or produced.

I do not expect to find written evidence of every aspect of air combat and have no doubt that some events remain unrecorded in any way, but the norm is to find something.

Nor does the fact that circumstances can go unrecorded prove that they did happen in another case ...

So show me some evidence please. From a reliable source.