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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#21
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Evgeniy, no time, which is crucial in this case. There were two separate combats over the exact place but within one hour.
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It also states: 'Kpt. Leśniewski downed "Ju 87", but attacked by few, defended himself for a long time, and was shot down.' A comment 'M.110' was added later, probably at Salon by Rolski. Similar additions appear in other documents and a different ink is clearly visible. Quote:
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Do I have to repeat ad nauseam that Pniak in his report dated 4.09.1939 clearly states that he fought against twin engined aircraft and that this is in agreement with a report of Rolski filed in Salon one and a half month later? Also it looks diary of the unit states it was Do 17 and only later someone corrected the entry to Ju 87. Finally, it was you, who excluded possibility of joint Me 109/Me 110 escort, which leads to the clear conclusion. I am afraid that further discussion leads nowhere. You have not seen a single Polish document, not to mention any knowledge about what has survived. Instead you deny any information included there, based on outdated books. When I wrote a comment to your article on III/4 Dyon, based on documents and not books, and giving reference to every single original document, your only comment was - it is worthless. How one can argue with you? |
#22
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Hmmmm.....
All is hard... It seems that there just not enough information about actions of Gruppe in Poland in 1939... Same thing as claims and losses of Erpr.Gr.210 over England... I know only 4 claims of this unit, but there MUST be more: for example Eduard Tratt added 10 claims to his score during BoB:http://www.luftwaffe.cz/tratt.html Thats all I could find ErprobungsGruppe 210 claims, from Tony Woods lists: 27.07.40 Ltn. Horst Marx: 1 3./ErprGr. 210 Hurricane über See vor Dover - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-1 11.08.40 Fw. Otto Rückert: 1 3./ErprGr. 210 Spitfire - - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-2 11.08.40 Oblt. Heinz Schoenfeldt: 1 3./ErprGr. 210 Spitfire - - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-3 12.08.40 Ltn. Horst Marx: 2 3./ErprGr. 210 Hurricane - - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-4 Seems I have more info about Gruppe actions during 1941 (as I./SKG 210), Battle of Kharkow in may 1942, Battle of Stalingrad in late 1942, "sitzcrieg" in early 1943, Battle of Kursk in july 1943 - then about actions in 1939 - 1940... This is sad... |
#23
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Privet Evgeniy
You are absolutelly correct, there are serious gaps in documents, that possibly will never be filled. Frankly, I do not understand, why to prove otherwise. |
#24
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Hi Eugen,
Do you know of any good sites listing losses from ZG1 / SKG210, lost during Kharkov or the Battle of Kursk 1942-43. in Russia. that might be available on any Russian website? Best Regs, Steve. |
#25
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Hi Steve!
List of SKG 210/ZG 1 damage/losses can be found in John Vasco's perfect book "Sting of Luftwaffe". Now I am working on confirmation of ZG 1 claims & losses in Russian sourses. Already found something very interested, according Battle of Stalingrad late 1942, Battle of Kursk 1943. Just check thread about Hauptmann Wilfried Herrman BTW: Do You know Russian? |
#26
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Hi Eugen,
Sadly i dont speak any Russian, just wondered if you might have been able to recommend any good ZG1 / SKG210 links to other sites in Russia. Im also aware of John Vasco's Sting of the Luftwaffe book, this being high on my wanted list! Im currentley trying to locate one. Best regards for now, Steve. |
#27
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
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3./KG 2 shot down Okrzeja at appr. 13.30 hours at Wyszkow. You surely know where his graveyard is (Kregi Stare at Wyszkow). IV./LG 1 flew a sortie between 12.31-14.10 with escort of I./ZG 1. Kpt.Opulski`s account agrees completely with German records and with the document of Pursuit Brigade. Therefore I accept it as the best of all memories written by Polish pilots about this particular mission. It doesn`t matter that it was published in older Pawlak`s book. According to IPMS, Lot.AII.11/1d-11 the III dyon had one engagement with the enemy. The document does not differe both engagements, but surely means that only one unit - the 112th eskadra - fought against the enemy (as described in the document). There is nothing about the 111 eskadra. Sorry for that. Quote:
A hit by own A.A. is not a collision, right? Quote:
Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them. Quote:
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IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1b-11. You better should find it and not just ignore it. Quote:
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Nonetheless I never heard about sections of 3 attacking Bf 110`s. These only could be sections of Ju 87`s. No German record is stating about fightings between I./ZG 1 and Polish fighters on this day. Even Prof.Trenel who had masses of German documents during the war wrote about 3 PZL shot down and 2 forced to land. This agrees with survived German records. 3 PZL claims by 1.(J)/LG 2 and 2 force landings claimed by III./StG 2. One correction for your archive: Earlier combat 8. and 9./StG 2, later combat 7./StG 2 and I.(J)/LG 2. Quote:
Marius |
#28
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Hi all, many thanks for help!
Another claims over Holland... Quote:
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#29
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
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http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=0764313053 http://www.addall.com/detail/0764313053.html http://www.naval-military-press.com/...books/4918.htm http://www.amazon.ca/Sting-Luftwaffe...e=UTF8&s=books http://books.stonebooks.com/cgi-bin/...edback?1000747 Hope this wil helps You Unfortunatly I cannot by it... |
#30
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Hi,
I have following serials of lost Blenheims from 600 RAF on the 1o.05.40: - L1335 - L1401 - L1514 - L1515 - L6612 Could someone confirm them? At which time this action took place? Around midday? I have also a Blenheim L1517 from 604 RAF as lost to the fighters on the 10.05.40. Perhaps someone has here more details? Regards Robert |
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