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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#21
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed
Jim:
OOOF, I'm getting motion sick JUST reading that! Obviously in a really large furball it's next to impossible to keep track of what's going on & who's doing what to whom...but back to the P38s claimed by II/JG2 in Tunisia; in defense of the experten of II/JG2, I also read in Fighters over Tunisia that US units had a very hard time with record keeping, given the VERY rough conditions on the ground( air raids, lean supplies, few or no 'official' forms & reports to fill out, moving from airfield to airfield) & Shores at least states it may have been possible that losses/damage may actually have occured but no one had the time/presence of mind to report it on the days they happened; But of course, it could just be that the pilots of II/JG2 could have been optomistic RE: the assessment of THEIR skills; NickM |
#22
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed
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#23
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed
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#24
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed
Marsayo:
Certainly LATER in the war they had to account for every dang rivet, bullet & bean--but early on...I get the feeling they may have cut corners here & there; NickM |
#25
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed
Oh sorry...forgot to add that maybe the losses are reported but not on the dates that they actually occured...but then again maybe it's lots of wishful thinking on the part of II/JG2
NickM |
#26
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed
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#27
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed
Well, all good stuff. This particularly.
Re. P-38 losses on 8th January 1943. As well as the P-38 losses for the 14th FG of 3 destroyed and 2 damaged the 82nd FG this day apparently lost 4 Lightnings and 2 pilots. No less than 6 separate missions were flown by the 95th and 97th FS, 3 each. This was an unusually high figure at that point in the campaign for this inexperienced group. The 96th FS was non-operational that day. All 6 were bomber escort missions. It appears the following losses occurred; And this... I also read in Fighters over Tunisia that US units had a very hard time with record keeping, given the VERY rough conditions on the ground( air raids, lean supplies, few or no 'official' forms & reports to fill out, moving from airfield to airfield) Seems a hazy topic at best. Spick has 40 books out on WW2 aviation, don't agree on him being unreliable. he even admitted a mistake regarding a pilots 4 engined score of 44. It was typo, 14 correct number said he. As for Buehligen being a liar, seems a stretch. 800 missions, 112 kills, knocked down 3 times, ( never hit by an enemy a/c according to The Aces Speak book ), one would have to think he was most likely a rather confident person. It's more often the "can't do it" type of person that engages in overexagerration & lies. But then Rudorrfer may prove that theory to be not always the case. |
#28
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed
baron, there are some very huge differences between a lia and one overclaimed sometimes. air combat was not like one watching football on your large-scree television, it was very confuse and messy, one could be a very honost man and tell just what he saw in the combat but still overclaimed heavily
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#29
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed
Hi to all,
the discussion on relationship between claims and real losses is always fashinating and complex. Here I prefer to skip the confrontation between Luftwaffe and other aviations claims – in parenthesis I consider Luftwaffe claims on average more accurate – in the case of Bühligen’s P-38 claims a good work is “ FW 190 in North Afrika”. Can be interesting to compare Spitfire and P-38 claims and the fact that Spitfire’s are more accurate is maybe another step in favour of incomplete US data, if too overclaim is evident. Come back to Abschüsse on western front 1941-1943 and examining the JG 2 and JG26 claims, the latter are very close to allied real losses, it is sufficient to compare days when only one of the two JG scored and this is the result. With this, I don’t think the whole JG2 overclaimed, some pilots, like Egon Mayer or Bruno Stolle, or some units, like 8./JG2 whose activities around Brest are simpler to compare with allied losses, are pretty accurate (in the period September 1942-april 1943 this staffel claimed 29 spitfire and I find 26 losses from RAF squadron in exact time and locations); other cases, like Siegried Schnell or the Stab seemed to have often very overclaimed alessandro Bray |
#30
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed
Yes I'm familiar with all that Mars. & don't watch football.
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