Meissler's (7./JG52) story and interrogation report

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

So the possible 'solution' to this case is:

1. Meissler develop engine problems while over Soviet held territory
2. Meissler tries to get back to his own lines despite the engine acting up
3. Two Yak's spot the aircraft of Meissler and pursue him and tries to force him to land
4. After several attempts to evade Meissler give up and belly lands his aircraft after being fired at - not in an attempt to shoot him down and kill him but as warning shots to force him down.
5. The Soviet propaganda and intelligence machinery gets moving

I guess that even Andrey must now realize that the events of the day may be closer to Meissler's own recollections than his attempts to discredit him as a liar.

That this particular case seems to support the story told by the pilot on the German side does not then mean that there was no attempts to glorify ones own history from members of the Wehrmacht. But it shows that we should all be careful not to discredit people using their name
without being entirely sure of the facts of the case.

I know from my own research both home in Norway, Finland, Germany and Russia that it is very hard for veterans of that period to be objective to what they were involved in event 70 years later, even if there are numerous examples of former foes becoming friends the underlying distrust and in some cases pure hatred is still there.

Surprisingly the most hateful pilot with regards to the Germans I have ever met was a US veteran which in the end turned out never to have flown a combat mission in Europe at all...

Regards,
Andreas B

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, again

Nokose - the stories like these are of course horrifying, and when looking at the conflict known as WWII in retrospect the way we are able to do in a (mostly) free world in my opinion tends to show the human from all its worst sides.

What is incredibly disturbing is to see how thin the coat of civilization that cover the underlying beast is in a presumably normal human being. We can in my opinion not discredit all the people that commited atrocities during the war (and in earlier and later conflicts) as having a mental dysfunction, as many of them were leading a perfectly normal life before a given conflict - and that the vast majority went back to a normal life and career afterwards.

I am sure that the Soviet female interrogator and self appointed executioner later on was a loving wife and caring mother.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Nokose]

Yes, she might have been a loving mother and maybe grandmother but you could tell from her expression that she had still had the bitterness. Obviously something had made her that way. The show really didn't spare the western allies because it related about an American soldier who hinted at killing a Belgian civilian taking a hot meal to the Germans in the fog one morning. On the U.S. veteran that hated Germans but never served, I still see that today in a few people out here. My family fought the Germans in both world wars but I never heard any "hate talk" from them.

I find this thread interesting but I don't think that Andrey put it up out of hate but as information and a different point of view.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

Yes, I am sure that he just wanted to relate a different view, and no doubt this thread have shared more light on this specific case.

Hopefully we can come to an agreement that this chap did not intentionally lie about what happened this day, but only told the story as he experienced it.

Regards,
Andreas B

[John Beaman]

Guys, interesting discussion, but let's keep this thread on subject. The JG 52 pilot, etc.

If you want to start a thread on WWII atrocities, etc., that's fine but do it in a new thread in the WWII in General section

[mars]

Originally Posted by Nokose

Yes, she might have been a loving mother and maybe grandmother but you could tell from her expression that she had still had the bitterness. Obviously something had made her that way. The show really didn't spare the western allies because it related about an American soldier who hinted at killing a Belgian civilian taking a hot meal to the Germans in the fog one morning. On the U.S. veteran that hated Germans but never served, I still see that today in a few people out here. My family fought the Germans in both world wars but I never heard any "hate talk" from them.

I find this thread interesting but I don't think that Andrey put it up out of hate but as information and a different point of view.

That I guess your family are not Russian, Jews, Poles or Serbs. Sometimes you received what you gave, so we oftern say Karma is a cold blood b***h.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello, friends!

At first: I haven't a goal to prove something for all cost; I try to establish some facts.

2nd: I hope to visit TsAMO (500 km from me) in September and try to look at some documents for the further details of 28.5.43. It was a hot day on Kuban.

3nd: I fully agree with Andreas, that:

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Use caution but do not entirely dismiss records like the one mentioned.
However - taking everything written in an interrogation report at face value is equally naive.

I read dozens of Soviet and German interrogation reports (probably some hundreds) and check some of them with "normal" documents so I know that it is specific source. In "sensitive" points (for POW or for interrogator) it may contains a total lie or semi-truth. For example, some German bomber pilots said they made mostly recce flight instead of bomber raids. In "neutral" themes some info maybe a disinformation too, but % of truth is clear higher. For exampe it is info about air bases in the past. This info isn't valuable for JG52 (maybe only as indicator of truthfulness of POW's info). But it is a valuable source for less researched and less documented units.
And let's don't forget that in some cases POWs were captured with various documents (even with "personal airman's KTB" - notepads with airman's detailed diary). As POW knew that these documents on hands of interrogator, he had less freedom to disinform, even if he want it.
Return to Meissler: it isn't clear, did the info about engine damage was "sensitive" for interrogators some hours after of event, before the "propaganda machine" became it's work. Please take into consideration that interrogation report was a internal, secret document and, as they thought, NEVER available for public.

Some remarks:

Originally Posted by Johannes

Meissler explained that he had a technical problem with his Bf109 and did not even see an enemy aircraft before his belly-landing, same thing happened to Friedrich Obleser the same day, but he managed to evade capture.

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Hi.
So the possible 'solution' to this case is:
1. Meissler develop engine problems while over Soviet held territory
2. Meissler tries to get back to his own lines despite the engine acting up
3. Two Yak's spot the aircraft of Meissler and pursue him and tries to force him to land
4. After several attempts to evade Meissler give up and belly lands his aircraft after being fired at - not in an attempt to shoot him down and kill him but as warning shots to force him down.

Something wrong in this solution, it seems

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

I guess that even Andrey must now realize that the events of the day may be closer to Meissler's own recollections than his attempts to discredit him as a liar.

Meissler not a liar, of course. He said a truth. The problem is when he said a truth - in 1943 or in 70ties. In both cases he has a reasons to "change a reality". As you see in 70ties his info (in Johannes's transition, at least) wasn't entirely correct.

Originally Posted by Juha

Pavel Tarazov’s account on the capture of Meissler can be read from Antipov’s and Utkin’s Dragons on Bird Wings p. 36 – 7. Tarazov and one other unknown Yak pilot (not from 812th IAP), surprised a lone Bf 109. Meissler didn’t give up easily but tried several times to escape to west ... And in the photos the blades of the airscrew of 109 are badly bend, so it was after all wheels up landing even if in the photos the plane is already jacked up on its wheels.

The blades of the airscrew is badly bend, yes. It means that:
1. Pilot is really belly-landed
or
2. His airscrew has touched the ground because he landed not on airfield but on steppe, probably not so flat as airfield.
I don't know, what version is right, but I'll try to find in documents about it. After all, apart from "propaganda" and operative documents, the records of engineer service of 4.Air Army exists.

I read the "Dragons on Bird Wings". It isn't clear the sourse of Tarasov's story (he was killed in accident in 1944). The version has some discrepancy with operative records of 4.Air Army (2 Yaks, include one unknown, versus 3 Yaks of 812.IAP). But records of 3.IAK and IAPs remains. And at least unknown Yak established relative easily, I think (variants are few). I'll try it in September, I hope.

**************
Hello, Nokose!

The strange female interrogator is off topic, but I'll answer later. Seems unreliable in some details, but ...
What is the exact name of the show? Is it available on the net?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, again

Seems that every time one tries to really get into details the number of variables defining a story is high.

What did Meissler say when?

What did Tarazov tell whom and when?

What does the photos really tell us?

John - never tried on my part to make this a discussion on atrocities - but as the main point in this thread is what is true and what is not in personal recollections and wartime interrogation reports it is difficult not to touch on the subject that all information was not obtained in a colleagual discussion over a nice cup of tea.

Andrey - really look forward to seeing everything you dig up at Tsamo, very nice to know that someone is working there, and might send you a request per pm later on

Regards

[Juha]

Hello Andrey
the blades were bent at the roots, so probably a wheels up landing with engine running, see photos on page 38.

Juha

[Nokose]

Let me say that I brought up this incident to illustrate that not all interrogators were the people to do the job. Not to start an argument. The fact that some these interrogations are coming out now can clear up some of the MIA records for families. It's better to know something then nothing. I've read a few of the one's from some of M. Khazanov's books. Some of the POW's seemed defiant and others seemed to except the war was over for them but only told what was necessary.

Andrey- I don't remember the name of the person or program. It covered a lot of range for several nights on the second world war. The only thing I found on PBS TV was a show "Secrets of the dead: Deadlist Battle" a 53.50 minute documental on Stalingrad.