New picture of a Me262 with Karoband

[Harold Lake]

David,

You have certainly been playing in the checkerboard sandbox far longer than me, and probably longer than most readers of this thread. So all of us owe you a huge debt of gratitude for your thoughful and comprehensive presentation.

So red and black it is for 501232! You rest your case! Just for the record, for me the clincher was found on the port side of this Me 262. In the photo with Watson and a German officer, if you look closely at the band's leading edge, just to the officer's left elbow at the location of the black vertical lifting arrow, you will see unmistakable evidence of a second checkerboard color. And the fact its tonal brightness is virtually identical to the adjacent camouflage paint further reinforces your conclusion for the color Red!

Now, if you can ferret out the werk nummer for Yellow 3, that would indeed be masterful!

Hal

[David E. Brown]

Hi Hal,

Thanks for the comments. I should note that my good friend Philippe de Meldeur in Belgium has studied these markings for about as long as I have. I highly value his comments and insights that he has shared with me over the years and has challenged me on my interpretations. I guess he now owes me one of those great Belgium beers he tells me about!

Yes, the difference between the lighter colour of the tailband and the lighter camouflage colour is very subtle but with a good quality print one can see the difference. Tom and Richard thought that the shade was best matched with Hellgrün 25, whilst the darker squares Bau 24. Rot 23 is also a very good match and with new information that was subsequently revealed, we now know that band was red and black.

By the way, the officer standing with Col. Watson is none other than Lt. Heinrich Haeffner, the pilot of "Yellow 5" though serving with 2./KG 51. I was able to match his features in this photo and those taken of him that were part of a collection that included his diary, military documents, etc. as well as other photos taken of him with KG 51 pilots.

I believe that the photo you refer to was taken around noon on May 9th while Col. Watson was at München-Riem looking for aircraft to return to the U.S. He arrived there on the morning of the 8th and witnessed the arrival of the Ju 290, and possibly "Yellow 5" and "Black X" later in the day, and if memory serves was back at Lechfeld later on the 9th.

Regarding "Yellow 3's" identity (the Moosburg kite), based on its original camouflage and national markings style (and rear rudder light), as well as some documents, I think that I know its werknummer should be. Time will tell . . .

Cheers,

David

[David E. Brown]

Hi Roland,

Yes, it will detail the end of the so-called "Gefechtsverband Hogeback" and the adventures of the various pilots and their aircraft on May 8th.

I too originally saw a "13" in other unpublished images of the port side, but now think that the "1" appears to be a fuel stain, or, maybe an overpained "1" though this is not observed on the starboard side images. Certainly its original code - "B3+?H/K/L" - was covered up when it and the unit's other aircraft were assigned numeric 'fighter' codes. When I get home this evening (I am hanging around at work catching up on some things) I'll see if I can highlight the '3' on a photo and post here.

As previously announced, the JaPo series will start off with the KG and KG(J) units (Part 1), with Part 2 later detailing the JG and other units operating in the Protectorate. Part 1's artwork and aircraft descriptions have been completed and historical segment's text is now sitting on my desk for editing. Hopefully Tomas and Ales will have it in press later this year. I thus recommend visiting the JaPo website from time to time to follow the progress of this interesting project as well as others. http://www.japo.eu/news.php

Cheers,

David

[PhilippeDM]

Thanks David, for your comments. That beer is still cold and awaits your visit Please do not forget that you are still my master in Luftwaffe related items!

Concerning Karobands: yes it has been a long time since something new happens, beside the two new Bf 109 KG(J) 6 planes showed in pictures in the latest (vol.2) Fw 190 D-9 book of Jerry Crandal.

I have to verify at home if the picture showed is not the same which was showed some years ago on some website, format as great as a stamp.

Of course I have to complete my matrix with this one!

I do not have my files here, but somehow I feel that KG(J) 6 is the most representative gruppe showing us pictures of karobands with Me 262 (IIRC 4 now) and Bf 109 (must be 4 now)

For me, the most interesting however is the colorpîcture of a Bf 109 in Kaufbeuren scrap pile showing (again if my memory serves well, I'm at work!) KG (J) 54 large blue white checkers.

I know how I will pass this evening....

[cobrahistorian]

David,

It's been over a decade since we last communicated, but in doing some research on an Me262 pic I was just shown by a friend, I stumbled across this thread and had to comment. I just was shown (and have a digital copy) a nearly identical photo to the one you posted. Same aircraft. Looking at the painted over side number, I'm fairly certain it is 13, not 3.

Drop me an email at cobrahistorian@yahoo.com and we can talk more!

v/r

Jon Bernstein

[Tony Kambic]

Not sure if this adds anything to your discussion, an image from Wolfgang Samuel 'Watson's Whizzers'.

Col. Watson standing with Hauptmann Herman Kersting at Lechfeld next to an Me262 in early May 1945.

[David E. Brown]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for sharing this with us. If you scroll up to post #22, you will see that I provide more information on this photo and the associated aircraft and individuals.

Cheers,

David

[Karoband]

Gentlemen,

I have just obtained a copy of Gotterdammerung: Luftwaffe Wrecks and Relics, Number 1 (2006). On page 85 is a photograph (and rear fuselage profile by Tom Tullis) of the starboard side of the Me 262 A-1a "Yellow 3" of KG(J) 54 "photographed on a scrapyard at Munchen-Riem in Germany during late 1945 or 1946."

I would like to point out that each side of the Karoband on the port side of the aircraft on post #1 of this thread has four 'chequers', and that the Karoband itself is situated in front of the leading edge of the tail fin. However, each side of the Karoband in the starboard view of the aircraft found in the Munchen-Riem dump has two 'chequers' and the Karoband is behind the leading edge of the tail fin.

I have never heard of such asymmetrical markings. Like Roland I am not convinced this is the same aircraft. Could the aircraft in post #1 be the one Dan O'Connell mentioned in post #5?

Best regards,

Jim Geens

[David E. Brown]

Hi Jim,

No, you are not confused. These are two different aircraft but similarly coded and were from different Gruppen and found in different locatios, i.e. "Yellow 3 +" (München-Riem) and "Yellow 3 + I" (Moosburg).

Dan’s post (#5) does indeed refer to the photo in post #1, but was based on what Jim Crow had written on the back of another photo of the machine based on the vet’s recollections. Jim did not believe this was the correct location but the original caption stuck.

This “Yellow 3’ was found near Moosburg and was a I. Gruppe machine wearing the small style KG(J) blue/white karoband with its white portions partially overpainted. The dark and medium shades of the squares suggested to some that they were black and red respectively, and hence representing a KG(J) 6 aircraft. Its unit wappen was overpainted as well and the style points to the I. Gruppe as well. Based on my study, this aircraft comes from the late 1105xx to early 1106xx werknummner series. Jim’s photo appears in my post #15,

The “Yellow 3” machine found at München-Riem was a III. Gruppe aircraft as evidenced by the vertical bar aft of the balkenkreuz. Its karoband was blue and white and was the large four panel size typical of all aircraft from this unit. As well, its unit wappen clearly shows that it was a KG(J) 54 aircraft, and its style diagnostic for this unit. As well, these is a painted out diagonal line from the windscreen to the wing training edge on the fuselage side. Though overpained, this latter marking is seen on III. Gruppe Me 262s over the late 1944-early 1945 period, and then disappear. Interestingly, this marking can be traced back to the Battle of Britain in 1940, with KG 2 and KG 76 having a similar marking on their aircraft:

• KG 2 = Diagonal encircling nose band ahead of the cockpit
• KG 54 = Diagonal fuselage band behind the wing trailing edge
• KG 76 = Vertical fuselage band behind the wing trailing edge

Jim, take a look at what I have written about these units’ markings in post #1 as there is a lot more information therein. In addition, a great deal of information on the aircraft from the KG(J) units is presented in a book I co-authored with colleagues from JaPo:

David E. Brown, Aleš Janda & Tomáš Poruba & Jan Vladař, 2012
Messerschmitt Me 262s of KG & KG(J) Units – Luftwaffe over Czech Territory 1945 - Volume III.
JaPo Publishing, Prague, 180 p.

Cheers,

David

[Karoband]

Hi David,

Thank you so much for clearing this up and giving the background to the confusion. Unfortunately I do not have your book and it is not available on Amazon or Chapters-Indigo. How can I obtain a copy from Canada?

Jim