![]() |
|
Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
As I mentined in an earlier post, The RAF Ace Johnnie Johnson was credited with 38 Kills (30 Individual+8 shared).
What was Hartmann's ratio? Is his score broken up the same way? Vinman |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
Quote:
__________________
Dénes |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
Quote:
http://www.members.aol.com/falkeeins...annclaims.html Last edited by John P Cooper; 7th May 2005 at 04:25. Reason: typo |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
Quote:
If that was Erich Hartmann's 'method' for claiming victories -- it is all the proof we need that he was substantially overclaiming enemy aircraft destroyed and that his often-published score is grossly inflated. To be fair, it was not uncommon for flyers to assume that an enemy plane would crash if it was trailing smoke. But, it is rather astonishing that an experienced hunter like Hartmann could be so amateurish to justify that as a policy -- after 1,500 combat missions! A smoke trail does not even prove that the enemy plane was hit by gunfire. Many engines would belch smoke when the pilot selected full power. If the motor was not operating in top condition or the fuel was bad, the engine would emit more smoke. When a plane was hit by gunfire, a trail of smoke was hardly enough to guarantee that the enemy plane would crash. Thank you for posting that link. The article was very enlightening. Last edited by Six Nifty .50s; 7th May 2005 at 03:32. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
I dont think you are being fare to Erich Hartmann. I am sure He witnessed good hits before the smoke to asume he had been it's victor. If he had followed all his victims down to the crash site, he would not have survived very long. I am sure all pilots of all nations claimed this way. But I am not going to question every fighter pilot who claims a kill.
|
#26
|
||||
|
||||
![]() You are most welcome but please give credit to Neil and the authors he translated...
As for the one part about smoke - I think the point was that if enough smoke was seen that from experience the assumption could be made that an engine fire or other fatal damage was inflicted thus it was claimed as a kill. Cheers John |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
Quote:
Unless the gun camera record shows the enemy plane hit the ground, broke up or exploded in mid-air, or the pilot is filmed while bailing out, the intelligence people should usually reject such a claim for lack of evidence. When gun film was not available, it may have been acceptable to consider eyewitness reports from other pilots, but that could get confusing if there were many planes swirling around and shooting at each other in the same area. Last edited by Six Nifty .50s; 7th May 2005 at 06:17. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
Yes I understand what you are saying. I just don't think we should pick on any specific fighter pilot. I think this type of claim happened with all fighter pilots who claimed many kills. Maybe we should just deduct 3/4 of all claims from all pilots. Robert Johnson was claimed shot down in his P47 "Half Pint" in 1943, because the German fighter pilot thought there was no whay he would make it across the Channel. Johnson himself didn't think he could.
|
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
Quote:
|
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
Quote:
The fact is that some units on both sides had a more "liberal' attitude toward confirmation of kills. JG 2 is one example. The MTO seems notorious for overclaiming on the American side. For example, on 30 July 1944, the 325th FG claimed 21 single-engined fighter which they identified as both German and Italian fighters over Sardinia. The Italians had previously been pulled back to the Italian mainland. The opponents of the Americans were from III./JG77 which in fact lost only four fighters and one pilot killed, a claim of 5:1. The story improved with time where the Americans claimed that Italian civilians near the base stated that some 30 German fighters failed to return, and thus, confirming for the Americans that their claims were understated. Since we have no record of the interrogation of these civilians, all that is possible at this time is to conclude that the American interrogator was putting the answers into his questions and that the Italians told him what he wanted to hear. |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
NEW BOOK - LUFTWAFFE & THE WAR AT SEA | DavidIsby | Books and Magazines | 27 | 29th June 2012 00:15 |
Luftwaffe Aces KIA in Normandy in 1944 | Christer Bergström | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 35 | 13th August 2005 21:10 |
Erich Hartmann: 352 victories or... 80? | Dénes Bernád | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 67 | 4th May 2005 19:04 |
Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia | Christer Bergström | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 47 | 14th March 2005 04:03 |