Confusing late-war "Gustav"

[Cpt_Farrel]

If it's a G-14 it's definately an AS. that's obvious from the panels behind the engine. I'm not all that technical when it comes to the 109, I'm more into the colors and markings and to me, the fuselage cross looks to be in standard size but the G-10's from Erla had a smaller than usual cross...

/Anders

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by Jochen Prien

So, that is how I arrived - for tthe time being - at the conclusion, that these four a/c may have belonged to III./JG 300.
Your opinion ?

your 'highly likely' is now 'an assumption' - but no arguments from me - it certainly looks like these are JG 300 machines despite some anecdotal evidence that may suggest otherwise..
A couple of points regarding III. Gruppe perhaps; the closest loss to 150816, G-10 Black 4+ found at at Bad Langensalza that I can see is in fact a I. Gruppe machine - also in this WNr. range there are a good number of machines assigned to I. & IV Gruppen. I./JG 300 were in the throes of disbandment. We know too that III. & IV./ JG 300 did not use any Gruppe symbol as regular practise certainly through to April 45 - neither did I./JG 300 of course- that seems to rule out Olivier's theory of confusing the enemy- so why a horizontal bar and for what purpose..? All four Gruppen of JG 300 were in action in the sector Gotha-Langensalza-Eisenach-Kassel during early April 1945 and on more than one date sorties were flown by various ad-hoc unit groupings as far as I can tell from my reading of the JG 300 history. The "numeral argument" is valid perhaps - but leaving aside II./JG 300, 'Black 4' could be a 4. or 14. Staffel machine couldn't it..? 'Yellow 1' (?) likewise, a 3. or 15 Staffel aircraft ..? 16. Staffel had blue numbers. 150 XXX series losses were recorded by IV./JG 300 during April 45. Final comment - Fhj.-Uffz. Erik von Barnekow (11./JG 300) was brought down on 2 April in the same sector. His POW interrogation report is reproduced in the JG 300 history (Vol II) - there is no evidence there of any 'special markings' on his machine ...just about every other pertinent detail is noted - or, presumably, would have been, if it had been there.....

[George Hopp]

I hate to say it, but no one in this thread seems sure which sub type is represented by the Gustav in the photograph that started this discussion. At first glance most seem to think it's a G-10, but one or two have said, with equal clarity, that it's a G-14...maybe not an "AS" model but some other. Come now, it can't be all that hard to document based on solid detective work, or can it?

Well, yes, Harold, identifying these late-war 109s can sometimes be a real bugger. The G14/ASs can easily be mistaken for 109 G10s. So, then to the unit identification markings. And, as you can tell from the above discussions, even that is not always easy because at this time a lot of bad things were happening in Germany, and so documentation is not always available or definitive. Welcome to the Puzzle Palace.

For what it's worth, all the W.Nrs. mentioned above are G-10s assembled at Erla. This according to Prien/Rodeike's "Bf 109 F, G, & K."

[WEISNER]

George is right, This is a bugger, I pulled out the 109 book mentioned above by Prein and Rodeike a few days back, and still came away not knowing if a G-10 or G-14/AS?
I wanted to thank Nick Beale though for takeing the time to post the interesting document of aircraft assigned to III./JG300 from Erla-Leipzig.
Kevin

[Mermet]

Originally Posted by Eduardo

If you look carefuly you can check a small oil tank ( 38 l ) which identifies it a G-14 AS model ( DB 605 ASM).

Eduardo.

Hi Eduardo,

You're right, it's a G-14/AS. One of the 135 (only) built by Erla-Leipzig.
Erla G-6, G-14 and G-10 had this extra hatch under the MW 50 connexion.

Cheers,
Jicehem

[Cpt_Farrel]

I dug up this old thread because I've taken an interest in the Erla-built G-10's lately. Even though this might be an Erla built G-14/AS there's still the mystery of the tailband which is shared with several Erla G-10's and I've come to think of one detail that hasn't been mentioned yet.

The thing is that all these aircraft show a very light color on the tailbands beside the white one which points to I./JG300. III and IV Gruppen used a darker blue. This has me leaning mostly toward the idea that these were machines passed on to other units from I./JG300. I know the idea has been mentioned by Neill earlier but the lighter color of the tailband is a small additional piece of info that might help convince someone (mostly trying to convince myself actually).

II./JG3 comes to mind as they used a black bar for all Staffeln...

Cheers! / Anders

[Roger Gaemperle]

I am also digging up this old thread. I have recently acquired a photo of a wrecked Erla-built Bf 109 G-10 (or G-14/AS) with a three colored RVB and horizontal black bar and the tactical code White 14 or Yellow 14. As far as I am aware, it is a yet unknown one that also wears such a (most likely) blue-white-blue with black horizontal bar marking. The photo will be published in one of my future "Captured Eagles" volumes, so, I can't show it here (I hope you understand!).

I have summarized the known aircraft with such a marking. Except for the blue codes they all match III./JG 300 Staffel colors. Could it be that "blue" was actually "green" and they were 11./JG 300 machines?

Anyway, this I think supports more the theory that when II. and III., IV. Gruppe merged, all aircraft received black horizontal bars. If the former JG 300 aircraft had been transferred to another unit, it would be likely that some of the tactical codes (which would have changed) would have a different style.

Has there been any new insight since the last post about 2 years ago?

Cheers,
Roger

III./JG 300:
9./JG 300 -> YELLOW
Yellow 1 with black border, W.Nr. unknown, location unknown
Yellow 6 with black border, W.Nr. unkown, Munich-Riem
10./JG 300 -> WHITE
White 9 (or Yellow 9), W.Nr. unknown, Selbitz
White 14 (or Yellow 14), W.Nr. unkown, location unknown
11./JG 300 -> GREEN
12./JG 300 -> BLACK
Black 4 with white border, W.Nr. 150816, Langensalza
Black 1 with white border, W.Nr. unknown, Langensalza

IV./JG 300
16./JG 300 -> BLUE
Blue 12, W.Nr. 152027, location ?
Blue 2, W.Nr. unknown, Buchau

[S Sheflin]

Greetings all,

Like the mythical Phoenix, this Bf109G recognition mystery rises anew.

In my opinion, Kuba nailed the correct identification of this mystery craft early on in his postings #3 and #12 as being an Erla-built Bf109G-10. There, he accurately pointed out that it has the revised oil piping routing, raised oil filler hatch/larger oil tank, and raised “Cold Weather Starting Device” positioning only found on the DB605D.

Further, careful examination of the photograph shows that it has the four lightly colored electrical wiring loom connectors exclusive to the DB605D. The connectors have been disconnected, but are visible at the end of the dangling wire loom near the firewall. Examples of these connectors can be seen in photos of surviving DB605D-powered Bf109s.

I think it’s a G-10 from the 150XXX, 151XXX or 152XXX series, not a G-14/AS.

Steve Sheflin

[S Sheflin]

Just a quick "PS" on my last posting: I forgot to add the possibility that it might also be from the the 490XXX or 491XXX series.

Steve Sheflin

[Roger Gaemperle]

Hello,

I am digging out this interesting old thread again. Has there been any new insight about the Bf 109 G-10s with this short Gruppe bar over the JG 300 RVB?

At the time when the original thread was started, it was believed that these may have been late war markings for III./JG 300 Bf 109, but some stated that it may also have been I. or IV./JG 300 markings.

Cheers,
Roger