Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s

[Larry Hickey]

Doug,

I do not appear to have that publication in my library; any chance you could scan and post those photos

Thanx,

[ChrisS]

Hi Larry

Here are the pictures in the Japanese publication Aero 18. They are of the H-20 preserved at RAFM at Hendon. The flare chute seems to be in a different position to the photo shown earlier.

Second picture: Incidentally the He 111 at Gaerdemoen, illustrated in the same publication, is missing the wooden flare chute, presumably rotted away, as the rectangular opening is preserved. You can see the earlier position compared with Hendon's.

Regards

Chris

[ChrisS]

Here are a couple of other shots, first from a past eBay auction showing a closer image of the chutes and the second from this site http://www.beeldbankwo2.nl/index.jsp showing He 111 being manufactured.

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

With these latest photos it appears that this flare container was factory equipment on at least the He111H, although it doesn't appear to be present on many of the aircraft seen FL during the Blitzkrieg in the west and the Battle of Britain period. I don't recall seeing these on profile artwork for the He111 in the past either. Looks like this has been largely an overlooked feature on the aircraft. Thanks to all of you for your support and help with this one. I especially want to thank "ChrisS" for posting the pictures. I assure you that our many profiles of He111s for 1940 will be correct.
Regards,

[ChrisS]

Many thanks Larry.

Here are two other photos.

In the first the flare chute, on this KG 26 machine, seem to have some kind of light covering. I suspect this was to stop airflow entering the chute holes, in a similar fashion to the Battle of Britain Spifires and Hurricanes had their gunports 'papered over' with a red light canvas.
Source: Scale Aircraft Modeller International June 2002 Page 529

The second photo shows the interior of an He 111 showing the signal flare gun pouch which perfectly matches the beautifully executed A. Grainger drawing in Aerodata International No 12 Heinkel He 111 page 229
Source: Squadron Signal He 111 in Action, Uwe Feist, 1973.

Regards

Chris

[David Ransome]

Hi Chris,

The container in the second photo is actually associated with the MG15 in the nose. I can't scan at the moment but if you can find a Heinkel published sectional illustration of the A-Stand you will see a 'Bordtasche MG15' clearly illustrated.

Interestingly, when i carried out my own study of the H-20 at Hendon in the early 90s the flare cartridge container still had it's lid on, it seems to have been removed by the time Aerodetail got their photos. Sometime I'll maybe get round to publishing my photos of the internals of this H-20, and an H-16.

Also bear in mind that many drawings of the He111 cockpit are based on published photos and drawn by people who did not necessarily know what they were looking at. eg. Look at page 85 of the Aerodetail book (1997) H-1 cockpit layout illustration, and the long item above the wheel marked '27' then look at page 129 of Wings of the Luftwaffe (1993 paperback) item marked '112'. In the latter we are told that it is a 'seat raising pivot member and control conduit'. In fact it is a misinterpretation of a photo (probably of an early RAF captured example) and actually shows the pilot seat arm rest pivoted backwards. Item 80 in this picture is shown as flare storage but I'm pretty sure that if the photo used was the one that I'm thinking of it is again the MG15 associated item.

The Aerodata publication of 1979 isn't bad for the period but again the large cockpit illustration on page 229 should be seen as a representation and not necessarily technically accurate.

The Griehl book is by far one of the best books available on the He111 but should still be read in conjunction with others for the completer picture. Often Heinkel produced literature cannot be fully trusted, just as with other manufacturers. The pressures of wartime often meant delays in technical information reaching publication and sometimes never getting that far due to ongoing production line changes and operational requirements.

Incidentally, the fabric cover over the flare storage area would have 'pinked' zig-zag edges and was initially painted in the relevant camouflage colour for that area of the aircraft. This could make it 'invisble' to an external observer. As with wing mounted weaponry this cover would prevent dirt getting in and making it difficult to withdraw cartridges, the metal cover on the inside preventing airflow into the cockpit when cartridges were removed.

Regards,

David

[robert_schulte]

I can add the following photo from the Kagero book. There is no type designation given for this photo, however it appears in the chapter for the He 111 P.

Best wishes,
Robert

[ChrisS]

Thank you very much David for putting things straight!! The Grainger illustration matches the photograph and therefore, as you say, must be the box connected with the forward MG. The photograph however is not of the Hendon example but is a wartime original. It would be superb to see your photos of the Hendon example published. Am I correct in saying that the aircraft is essentially unrestored and in an original internal condition? Other than the Bf 109 G-2, I believe it's true that all the Hendon Luftwaffe aircraft are in this condition??

Thanks also for the information on the chute cover. Subsequently I've found two other shots with this cover in place, your explanation has made sense of these photos.

Cheers!
Chris

[David Ransome]

Hi Chris,

You are correct in that the aircraft is essentially unrestored although a group was trying to do some work to it before it was moved into the BofB display. For privacy reasons I won't mention his name but one of the group does use this board and may wish to make further comment, particularly regarding some of the earlier well intentioned but misguided/amateur attempts at 'restoration' mainly in the cockpit area.

Certainly in the late eighties I spoke with one of the museum officials who told me that with limited financial resources and because it is the 'RAF Museum' priority was given to RAF/Allied types. Whether this was true then or now I couldn't say, although I would hazard a guess!

BTW, the Robert Michulec He111 Aircraft monograph (1994?) shows the Heinkel factory produced sectional cockpit views on page 53 and the rear cover shows yet another interpretation of the cockpit area, with item 49 supposedly being a signals flare pouch - again!

I must get those photos sorted!

Regards

David

[David Ransome]

Oh, and by the way, whilst there is much in the way of originality internally it would not be true to say that it is in its original condition, unfortunately!

David