Missing airman : RAF matricule 48949

[Buz]

I have noted during my research using the AM Form 78, that some information is not forthcoming. The Number of Tomahawks and Kittyhawks that have no data on the cards IRT the units that the aircraft were assigned to would be suprising to most.

Whilst I acknowledge that most of these aircraft flew in the Middle East even some of the Home based aircraft have situations where they were assigned to a Sqdn, is shown in the ORB and in Logbooks as being on strength at that unit, but the AM Form 78 mentions none of it....could P3533 be similar??

Thoughts?

[Andy Saunders]

I think it is the case that many Hurricanes lost in France went through the 'system' so quickly that they just ended up being sent from an MU to the CFF pool and, thereafter, the recipient squadron was not reported back and thus it is not noted on the AM 78. To add to the paucity of information, those aircraft were very often lost in France without those responsible for keeping the records back at Air Ministry having the slighest idea when or with what squadron. Thus it is the case that many AM 78s for Hurricanes left behind in France are simply recorded as "Lost in France 5/40". Add to all of this the confusion of the situation on the continent, and the not infrequent orders to burn all paperwork and move out, and one can understand why we dont get a very clear picture of many individual aircraft histories. Often, the ORBs are not much help either. At least, all of the foregoing is my view of how things probably were.

In the case of P3533 it was allocated to CFF on 17 May and presumably delivered to an unknown squadron later that day as it was then lost with an (as yet) unknown squadron on 18 May. All that, of course, is supposing that the sparse details on AM 78 for P3533 are actually accurate!

[arnaud]

Bonjour,

Here is the document I have mentioned previously. If it could help authorities to identify this pilot killed in Neuvilly...

Bon vol

[Andy Saunders]

Thank you, Arnaud!

[Pieter H]

Andy, Arnaud,

Very interesting thread this one.
Still I am on some details now even more confused.

The serial of F/O Derek Allen was so far given by Cull (12 Days in May) and Peter Cornwell (TBoFTaN) as P2701. Andy now gives P2555. Where do you base this on?

Then the P3533 at Neuvilly.
The documents provided by Arnaud seem to confirm quite firmly the code, location and date. The challenge is then to match this wreck with a name and squadron.

If I go through my list there is effectively only one a/c that was shot down, crashed at an unknown location and where the pilot went missing on May 18. F/O Derek Allen!

The others are for completeness;
56/B Sqn N2439 F/O Rose at Brebieres
56/B Sqn N2430 F/Lt Soden at Briache-St-Vaast
111/B sqn L2501 F/Lt Darwood at Mons
229/B Sqn L1802 P/O Dillon at Mons
607 Sqn P2536 F/O Weatherill at Seranvillers

All these 5 seem to be well confirmed in terms of a/c serial and location, which then only leaves Allen as the possible candidate ?!
I do have the location of the fight of No 85 Sqn in which Alan was lost as over Le Cateau, which is a good match with Neuvilly, just a few miles north.

But then the implication is that there is a third possible a/c serial for Allen's aircraft: P2701 or P2555 or P3533.

Regards, Pieter

[Andy Saunders]

The RAF casualty file for Fg Off Derek Allen DFC confirms he was lost in P2555.

I do not know the source for P2701.

As yet we have not identified who the pilot of P3533 might have been. If the local information provided post-war to the MREU is correct, and if the date information in the records posted by Arnaud is correct, then we clearly have a problem in coming up with a possible candidate for the Neuvilly P3533 Hurricane. We know that it is not Allen, and we know that he was lost in P2555. We can also confirm that the Hurricane at Neuvilly was certainly P3533 as Arnaud's records indicate. This was established by a discovery at the crash site in 2007. (see image)

I hope shortly to be in a position to give more news about the burial place of Fg Off Allen DFC and have been speaking on the telephone this evening with his brother.

[Peter Cornwell]

I believe that the original published source for P2701 being ALLEN's aircraft on 18 May 1940 is Twelve Days In May (1995) co-authored by Brian Cull, Bruce Lander, and the late Heinrich Weiss. Unfortunately, this erroneous information was repeated by Norman Franks in his RAF Fighter Command Losses (1997) and, regretably, both sources then accepted by myself for The Battle of France Then & Now (2007). This is unfortunate as despite my efforts to weed out incorrect details from previous accounts James Halley's RAF Aircraft P1000-P9999 (1978) clearly records P2701 as a No.85 Squadron aircraft shot down over Belgium on 11 May 1940. Mea Culpa.

[Andy Saunders]

Peter

I think that we all appreciate the dreadful muddle that one inevitably encounters in dealing with casualties of this period. Going with the best information available is often the only available option. In this case, though, you played a role in the road to solving the puzzle and were part of the team that identified the Neuvilly crash as P3533. This ultimately has led to the identification of Allen's grave and clarification of the Hurricane he was lost in; P2555.

It does of course open up another question. What Hurricane was Sgt H N Howes flying when shot down on 20 May? We now know that it apparently cannot have been P2555.

[Peter Cornwell]

Andy,

Amen to that. God it was cold on that blasted heath. I only avoided hypothermia by imbibing copious draughts of Cognac courtesy the landowner during our post-dig 'wash-up'. I also recall breaking my shovel in an uncharacteristic display of enthusiasm. And what a pity that the impromptu salute by the French AF arrived a couple of minutes late for the minutes silence we held around the open hole.

As you rightly point out, the 'house of cards' that is No.85 Squadron serials in May 1940 begins to topple - only now kept aloft by the power of a fertile imagination. But, once again, P2555 for HOWES' aircraft on 20 May 1940 came from Twelve Days In May by Cull/Lander/Weiss which, in the absence of information to the contrary, was repeated by me in BoFrT&N. On this occasion, however, Norman Franks' can be considered blameless as he fails to include any mention of the loss of HOWES’ aircraft on that day. All of which said, I am mindful that the MoD must be correct in assigning P2555 to ALLEN ?

[arnaud]

Dear Andy and Peter,

Don’t be too certain about the serial number of F/O Allen 85 Squadron because I am not really certain he was missing on May 18th 1940. I wait for Andy's answer about his missing state that day...

I have received a letter from R.A.F. Historical Branch saying that F/O Allen was missing near Gembloux on May 15th 1940 on Hurricane No. P2701 (source : accident card). I could confirm that date for evidence by looking for again this letter stored somewhere in my archive ...

I haven’t received any information concerning his death on May 18th 1940. My general feeling is that I don’t really believe on his death on May 18th 1940, but I could be very wrong.

Is there an accident card for F/O Allen on May 18th 1940? I haven’t asked RAFHB at that time…


Bon vol