6L+NOS on eBay Bf 109 A or B

[red-star25]

The zero is for sure.
Some of the reports give the VKZ as "null" in written form.
I have no explanation for this system.

Dirk

[ouidjat]

Hi Roland,

I said "let me make a guess" in other words ...
I am asking the same thing than you: is it possible?
If someone says; "no, we did publish it or it has been studied long time ago and what Franck wrote is stupid" I would answer "OK, no problem".

If not - I just did read Rémi and Jörg comments - could it be the beginning of a clue to explain those markings?
And if yes (after a little research) I claim the moral copyright! For free!

Regards, Franck.

[edNorth]

My two pennies on decoding "6L+NOS" (1938 period);
Dirk or others correct me if totally off mark.

6 = Luftkreis 6
L = Lehrstaffel (See) Travemünde
N = Aircraft letter
0 = 10 Staffel
S = Schule

Btw. Interesting logbook as (crew) from 10.(See)/LG 2 transferred to form 3./KG 30 (Rechlin) about 15 September 1939 ("confirmed" by the Ju 88 "E +OH" and "E6+YH" <ex-I/KG 25> flown by this crew from 16 Sep onwards) - Thanks edWest for original posting.

Ref: 15.09.1940 the 3. Staffeln <KG 30> was added by re-designation of 10.(See)/LG 2 [“Bomber units of the Luftwaffe” by Larry de Zeng & Doug Stankey].

[ouidjat]

Hello Ed,

Very elegant!.. To say I said stupidities; I do appreciate, you are a gentleman! Thank you very much.

Yes, of course, you are closer; I was very surprised Rémi and Jörg stood without words in this case.

Nevertheless:
- I still do pretend that "O" is not zero in this case but a true O letter. Just look carefully the whole log book. True 0 appears latter with other given VKZ. And I don't see how that O/0 leads to 10.(See)/LG 2. It became only but I cannot imagine it was planned to be.
- Did Luftkreis 6 already exist at that time (which time after all)? I thought Luft(sport)waffe was still supposed to be under cover.
- Last, a little thing: What's the difference between Lehr and Schule? Two times in the same code? Because, excuse me, L for "Lehrstaffel (See) Travemünde" no, 6L yes, as a whole.

Best regards, Franck.

[edNorth]

Franck, not expert on the pre-March/April 39 codes, but I think these belong to that period (pre-war) ;-)

[Seaplanes]

Just a small correction: 10.(See)/L.G.2 was redesignated 3./K.G.30 with
effect from 15.09.1939. Ref: KTB Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu. for September 1939 page 55.

[ouidjat]

Ed,

I hope gents are taking my posts in this thread as fair ones.
You said no expert, I'm not too, and my main concern is Bf 109 ID.
But, as you know, it's difficult, sometimes, to put an ID without taking care of the background.
And I have - at least and not so - an obvious lack of background in such "exotic" pre-March 1939 code "rules", especially when it does concern flight schools.
I think, too, that I'm not the only one. I'm just trying to exchange fair thoughts, even naive ones, with everybody because I'm a 100% sure that knowledge can take his way not only through documentation reading but, too, with the help of feeling, trying, speculation.

I know a friend, well deep concerned with this question, who is absent since long time in this forum, and in another, because of his own personnal life struggles but, today, he was here, just watching without comments...

I just want to get reactions, which is, too, the purpose of such forum I guess?

Best regards, Franck.

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Seaplanes

Just a small correction: 10.(See)/L.G.2 was redesignated 3./K.G.30 with
effect from 15.09.1939. Ref: KTB Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu. for September 1939 page 55.

Hi Seaplanes,

Hence no personnal transfer but unit redesignation. If not I can see no difference with Ed's references.

Since I think we are talking about 1938 period, do we have some indications/sources about how and when Lehrstaffel (See) Travemüde became 10.(See)/LG 2 and what was the incidence on coding?

Another point:
What was the purpose to fly so much different types of planes in the same unit? Maybe a partial answer for my own question to Ed "what's the difference between Lehr and Schule"?.. Without talking about they-used-what-was-available ...

: The right designation should have been Nesting-See trials-School! (Seems like a joke; but after reading Mombeek JG 2 Vol 1 and the way units did split and were created with the available material under foreign control contengencies, I do believe that happened like that). Hence, too, the constant changing in unit designation and coding. Well ... it's obvious.

Regards, Franck.

[edNorth]

Ok. Now "this friday food shopping" is done, so more digging can be done.

@Seaplanes. Apologies, I shurely meant 1939 there too (my typo) as you see 1939 in paragraf above - This latter was copy/paste from other file (early Ju 88 unit histories, still in draft) and now wonder if this is error by me, or from deZeng/Stankey reference (likely mine I guess).

@Franck. One must look at the background too, Or at least try. There was Luftkreiskommando VI (Kiel) formed earlier (April 1935). One source says 10.(See)Staffel/LG 2 was newly formed in November 1938.

Added: returning to eBay logbook, I notice Do 18 code "L2+FOS" amended to "L2+F41" - This says me meaning "IV Gruppen, 1 Staffel = (later date 10 Staffeln in IV Gruppen).

[ianatheling]

I have several photos of He 111 and Do 17 with pre-war codes xx+x0K. I am sure that in these cases the code is used for the stab flight, with the number 0 designating stab and K designating Kampf.

so a He 111 marked 33+E0K is stab./KG 253

Ian