Externally visible differences between Bf 109E-3 and E-7?

[Franek Grabowski]

Hello Olivier
As I understand the only difference between E-3 and E-4 was MG-FFM, so there cannot be E-3 with pointed spinner, square canopy and MG-FFM. Another question is if where there any E-7 with MG-FF?
Do you know how this modification was reflected on an ID plate? Was it left without changes, exchanged or another one was added?
Cheers

[olefebvre]

Hi Franek, you seems to have missed a bit of the sentence :
If they hadn't introduced the E-7 or E-4 references which were useful on a tactical standpoint (...)
I was saying that the E-4 and E-7 denomination were introduced because of tactical change either armament (E-4) or range (E-7) and that if they hadn't chosen to do so you'd have had E-3s with a whole range of differences between them. I was just trying to make a point on the E-7 being an E-7 just because of a choice of designation based on a single change of tactical importance, sorry to have been confusing.

No i believe all surviving E-3 were at some point upgraded to E-4 status, it was not too long a task. Data plates were usually over stamped with the new designation at the workshop. But i'm not so certain about the E-3 to E-4 upgrade since the modification could have been done in the field and i'm not certain they overstamped there.
I have seen plates of E-1 converted to E-3 and even E-7 but no overstamped E-3 dataplate with E-4 instead.

[Franek Grabowski]

I think it was officially called temporary mental disability.
What I wanted to point out is that either E-7 were converted from E-4 only or part of the modification was MG-FFM rearmament. Otherwise it would introduce more mess than expected. I understand, that you agree with me, although lacking any definite proof.
Cheers

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

I have definitive proof of both E-1's and E-3's being converted to E-7, with WNr listings.

I am waiting for the documents, and will not post the listings until I can use the proper references and be definitive.

The documents are original reports from the Luftwaffe repair facilities.

Regards,
Andreas

[Franek Grabowski]

Andreas
The question is, where those aircraft re-armed with MG-FFM and was MG-FFM a standard weapon for E-7?
Best wishes

[Andreas Brekken]

The technical specifications for what defines a Bf 109E-7 is readily available in the documents from the Technisches Amt. WIll have to find them somewhere in the archive, I know I have a copy of the different¨designations from there.

Andreas

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

Just a heads up regarding the conversion of Bf 109's of earlier types to standard of Bf 109E-7:

There are more, but as an example, the following aircraft can be identified as conversions to E-7 from documents of the Erla Maschinenwerk VII, Antwerpen:

(The list has the following columns: Previous subtype, Built by, Werkenummer)

E-1 Arado 3300
E-1 Arado 4866
E-1 Arado 2696
E-1 Arado 3502
E-1 Ago 2950
E-1 Ago 3317
E-1 BFW 1937
E-4 BFW 2747
E-1 Fieseler 3174
E-1 FW 4077
E-3 Erla 2032
E-4 WNF 2747
E-4 WNF 5007
E-4B WNF 5902

Regarding the technical differences between a Bf 109E-4 and E-7, the following is taken from the 'Baureihenzusammenstellung der in der Luftwaffe eingeführten und in Einführung begriffenen Flugzeugmuster', written by the Generalluftzeugmeiser November 1st 1942.

From this document one can conclude that the E-7 really (as noted by others earlier in the discussion) is a fighter equipped for extended RANGE (that is the main reason for the new designation.

The technical standards are as follows (and this is interesting as this is a real LEGO toy approach!!):

Step 1: Bf 109E-1
Engine: DB 601 A
Armament: 4 MG 17 (Fuselage and wings)
Fuel quantity: 400 liters
Radio equipment: Fu G VII (with dingy E-1 S)

Step 2: Bf 109E-3
like E-1 but with:
Armament: 2 MG FF in place of wing MG-17's

Step 3: Bf 109E-4
like E-3 but with:
Armament: 2 MG FF 'M' in place of wing MG-FF's

Step 4: Bf 109E-4/B
like E-4 but with:
Abwurfanlage: mit SO-3-Einrichtung

Step 4a: Bf 109E-4/N
like E-4 but with:
Engine: DB 601 N in place of DB 601 A

Step 4b: Bf 109E-4/BN
like E-4/B but with:
Engine: DB 601 N in place of DB 601 A


Step 5: Bf 109E-7 'Jäger mit erhöhte reichweite oder Stuka'
like E-4/B but with:
(I include the original German text here so that You guys can read it Yourselves)
Abwurfanlage: Sonderträger f.abwerfb.300 l-Aussenbeh. unter d.Rumpf statt ETC-500. Sonderträger u.ETC können gegeneinander ausgetauscht werden'
in my translation:
Special equipment for carrying a 300 l external drop tank instead of a ETC 500. The special equipment for the drop tank and the ETC are interchangeable.

Thus: The E-7 is a Messerschmitt Bf 109E with

Engine: DB 601 A
Armament: 2 MG 17 in the nose and 2 MG-FF "M" in the wings
Fuel: 400 liters in the fuselage
Radio: Fu G VII
In addition: Special equipment for carrying a 300 l external drop tank instead of a ETC 500. The special equipment for the drop tank and the ETC are interchangeable.

Step 6: Bf 109E-7/N 'Jäger mit erhöhte reichweite'
like E-7 but with:
Engine: DB 601 N in place of DB 601 A

Step 7: Bf 109E-7/Z 'Jäger mit erhöhte reichweite oder Stuka'
like E-7/N but with:
Engine: with GM-1 equipment


Thus my conclusion as far as the external differences between the E-4 and E-7 goes:

A standard E-7 in 'Stuka' configuration can not be discerned from an E-4/B. Thus a photograph of an E with ETC 500 can be both an E-4/B and an E-7.

A standard E-7 in 'Jäger mit erhöhte Reichweite' configuration can be discerned from an E-4 by having equipment for carrying a droptank. Thus a photograph of an E with droptank cannot be an E-4.

The other versions of the E-7 You would have really good photographs to be able to tell apart, for the E-7/N would have 'C3' fuel marking (vs the standard '87' fuel triangle) (but this could also be a E-4/BN!!!), the E-7/Z would have the additional two hatches for the GM-1 equipment.


That's it!

Regards,
Andreas

[Franek Grabowski]

Thanks, I think it is a definite answer!

[olefebvre]

It confirms the documents i have at hands, thanks andreas (btw did you get my PM ?)
btw there is a small physical difference between a DB601N equipped a/c and the standard one. I'll try to come up with clear pictures/drawings and put something online when i get enough time to get back to the drawing board.

Cheers and thanks again,
Olivier

[Kuba Plewka]

Did the oil vapour separator lines on the crankshaft cover differ on 601 A and N engine?

The question to Andreas, that E-1S - S for Schlauchboot? Where was it stored?

thanks for excellent posting