Johannes Steinhoff victories

[Johannes]

Hi Stig

You are absolutely correct, could be a mis-read, or typo error. I will try to acquire a copy of the actual flugbuch. The official "166" by 10th June 1944 absolutely has mistakes, duplication seven months later for a start, also it mentions if witnessed, only two "ohne Zeugen"(O.Z) yet in his typed-out flugbuch it mentions another claim as O.Z.

The none noting of late 1941 claims could be sort weakness/fault in the flugbuch copy it was taken from.

I do not think any recounts of events in Steinhoff's book would be fabrications, as I do believe Steinhoff was honest in his claims, certainly the pattern of his claims would suggest honesty. But perhaps this can be explored by Allied loses experts. His claims for four Lightnings in one sortie should be easy enough proven, or otherwise.

With the official list, I believe by the fact that the mikrofilms give far more details, would suggest the mikrofilms would be the correct one, also they were completed daily, whereas the official list would be put together at some point, I would think mistakes more likely.

I would guess that when Steinhoff received the official "166" list, that he didn't check it against anything, therefore it's likely he took it as fact. Even with a "total", with so many claims, and waiting for confirmations to come through, how would he be absolutely sure of his total anyway.

Keep well

Johannes

[Franek Grabowski]

I think that apart of his log books, a diary must exist or must have existed while writing his book. I have tried to contact his family but in vain. I can imagine, though, that they might not want to release it due to family Gestapo connection.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Johannes

Yes it would be interesting to find out if the 24th or 29th is the correct date.
I am leaning towards the 24th (just as you), but one never knows...

Franek

That was an interesting observation. Care to elaborate a bit more on that connection?

Cheers
Stig

[Franek Grabowski]

Steinhoff's sister Charlotte married Dr Ludwig Hahn – Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD in Warsaw.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Franek

Very interesting. Had no idea about that.
With Steinhoff in the center, is that his parents to the left in the picture and his sister and her husband
to the right?

Cheers
Stig

[Franek Grabowski]

First from left is Hahn, then his wife. I do not know who is on the right. I have looked for a better copy of the picture but in vain. I shall try again.
They did not know, did they?

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks for the update.

Did they know? They knew a lot more than they admitted. It is rare to find a single Luftwaffe individual
admitting he knew anything. A few did.
I read a book published by Bonniers in Sweden in 1944 where basically everything that happened in
the Camps was told.
If we knew, they knew

Let's stop there since we are heading towards a political discussion....

B Rgds
Stig

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, it is history. Trying to erase any part of it is a bad thing.
I am certain, that he had a diary, his books being very accurate. This might be the reason, it remains hidden.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Russell Fahey kindly sent me a photo copy of the original flugbuch. Steinhoff's handwriting is clear and neat, don't know why he omitted claims for late 1941;

The "166" official list has several errors, firstly his Wellington claims for 18th December 1939 are recorded as 12th December 1939, the 18th would be the correct date. Clearly there is an error for the two for 10th May 1940, the first matches British losses well, the second should be impossible by virtue of the crash-site Dusseldorf, which in my opinion should read Den Haag like the other for that date.
But getting to the business end, The "166" by it's own counting should be "165" that for 25th January 1943 is recorded as nr.145 and again later as nr.163, and Steinhoff himself records nr.166(9th June 1944) as nr.167.
After this he records two claims for 24th September 1944, no types recorded, but there's nothing to say one couldn't be a Bf109, but for the first time in over hundred claims he doesn't give numbers, the mikrofilms should have recorded these but didn't, therefore I believe that they were just claims, not confirmed.

His flugbuch is signed-off on 11th january 1945(with no more claims) by Hauptmann and technical officer R Streicherz I think that's what his name reads, it's recorded twice. Usually this is because the pilot has been transferred. So the claims alleged with JG7 should be there but are not, but two flights on 4th January 1945 are recorded using the Me262.

Now it gets interesting. On the next sheet Streicherz as technical officer to JV44 signs of the next five flights, with a sentence stating a calculated ten flights from Munchen-Reims are missing, but the five claims are not entered by Steinhoff, but by Streicherz, including three claims, these five flight are between 2nd and 4th April 1945. Yet it looks like a forgery, at least the signature, and there's no official stamp.

I have an abschusselist which is typed-out, but somebody has corrected a few mistakes, and listed his final claims:-

nr.168 22nd September 1944 Jak-9
nr.169 24th September 1944 Il-2
nr.170 24th September 1944 Jak-9
nr.171 25th September 1944 Bf109E(Steinhoff did not fly this day)
nr.172 -173 27th February 1945 two Jak-9's
nr.174 20th March 1945 Il-2
nr.175 3rd April 1945 B-17
nr,176 5th April 1945 P-51
nr.177 8th April 1945 P-51

But also states regarding Me262 claims:-

Two Russian fighters February 1945
1 x B-17, 1 X P-51
middle of March 1945 one Russian over Berlin.

But also totals from lists:- ...........these contradict.

1st October 1944 total 169
1st January 1945 total 171
1st February 1945 total 171

I have seen one doctored flugbuch before where somebody has added in claims for a pilot who was a POW for a long time, so who's flugbuch was doctored probably by somebody else. One can be almost certain the pilot didn't have this flugbuch with him when he was shot-down over England, who got there hands on it is hard to say, possibly a family member, but the add-ins are clearly not in the pilots own handwriting !

So what the truth is is very hard to establish. We could establish if the five none Steinhoff written flights were on the flugbuch prior to Steinhoff's death.
Also Romanian Bf109E losses for around 24th September 1944. Was Streicherz(if that's his name) alive to write the last five entries.

Keep well

Johannes

[Frank Olynyk]

It looks perfect!

Enjoy!

Frank.