eBay: a Stab JG27 Bf109.. with Stab emblem??

[Jim P.]

David W. from the Falcon site has the machine correctly identified as Karl Munz's cracked up WNr. 8419. Compare to this photo.

[ouidjat]

Which Baslovo ??? "Near Grodino"???
Any German loss list for 8419? Can't we start with that, please?

[John Beaman]

Bf 109F-4 8419 MUNZ, Ofw. Karl 60 Stab I. JG 52 schwarzes <<-+- 08-Jan-42 Reported lost due to infantry fire. Notlandung. Returned WIA. RK. VIII.Fl.Korps/Eins.Osten Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol.7; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IX.1, p.134; Fast, JG 52, IV, p.57; LW im Focus #4, p.9 photo bei Grodino 100% F

[ouidjat]

Thanx John

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Just wondering about the Kennzeichen as reported in Prien. In the GenQu list the aircraft Kennzeichen is given as 'Winkel' only - I can see from the photo obviously that it was <<- + - , but still - the code points towards a Gruppenkommandeur or Kommodore - who was the 'owner' of this aircraft?

Also - the location is given as Gredine as far as I can decipher from the GenQu listing - the names on the eastern front are known to be notoriously badly spelled and it often seems to help to consider them as being onomatopoeia.

The location might well be Grodino. Maybe the farm is still there?

Regards,
Andreas B

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Also - the location is given as Gredine as far as I can decipher from the GenQu listing - the names on the eastern front are known to be notoriously badly spelled and it often seems to help to consider them as being onomatopoeia.

The location might well be Grodino. Maybe the farm is still there?

My guess from LEMB:

"I'd guess it was Maslovo (56°21'N, 34°31'E) near Rzhev. Roundabout 7km northeast form Maslovo existed an "Gridino" on the small river Darnya (roundabout 2-2,5 km northeast from Slinkino)."

Greetings
Rasmussen

[ouidjat]

Google street ... I don't believe it!!!

[Andreas Brekken]

Originally Posted by ouidjat

Google street ... I don't believe it!!!

Can't someone call that guy and ask if he can take a photo from inside his yard???

Regards,
Andreas B

[Rasmussen]

ouidjat, ouidjat ...

I've found 65 Gridinos in Russia. Your Gridino is the "Google street" - Gridino east from Moscov (55° 28' N, 39° 02' E), my Gridino is/was (it seems) an place near Rhzev (56° 23' N, 34° 36' E) --- without Google street

[ouidjat]

Ah ah ...
Indeed;

That's what I wanted to read from you: 65 Gridino and a Slinkino which is in Siberia NNW from Vladivostok without talking about a Maslovo, 170km East of Vitebsk (Bielorussia)

Hence we can find a Gridino Inside JG27 area as well another one Inside JG52 area....

More important is the German report indicating a single Winkel not <<-.

For me, until somebody proves - but really proves - I'm wrong, MUNZ loss report is giving a wrong WNr. ... But just a speculation; an educated speculation.

Bombing cited by Sidney is more consistant giving a Grodino in JG27 area...

As he said, too, looks like a non sense for a Geschwader Kdr wearing his -supposed - first emblem from I./JG131 and I can add;
Lessmann left I./JG 131 in March when the unit received its first Bf 109Bs in May and when the first documented picture of a Bf 109 wearing the Jesau shield was during the following summer; not on Arado 72. Therefore, most probably, no chance to have kept this emblem with him.

Last, and again, Lessmann machine was wearing his full score board on rudder during the following June of the said accident, why not before when MUNZ was supposed to have flown his machine??

Hence, again, the only logical - but just for me for the moment - explanation is that WNr. is wrong, well written, but wrong.

Best regards, Franck.