Luftwaffe Aces KIA in Normandy in 1944

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Christer Bergström

To return to the original topic:
Don Caldwell provides us with an interesting research result on the circumstances during the death of another German “super veteran” -Hptm. Emil Lang (403 combat missions, 173 victories) - in the West on 3 September 1944:

I am not sure what does it have to the subject, Lang was killed already after the Normandy Campaign. Anyway I have no possibility to check any documents to verify the course of the combat.

Of course the Allies weren’t always able to make use of their numerical superiority. To quote Don Caldwell again, this time concerning 18 June 1944: “Addi Glunz took Uffz. Lissack, a young 7th Staffel pilot on a two-airplane evening sweep. They encountered a pair of tactical reconnaissance Mustangs from No. 414 Sqd. (RCAF) and shot them both down. The more experienced of the Geschwader’s pilots could best most Allied pilots in single combat, but such opportunities came rarely.” (Caldwell, “JG 26 War Diary”, Vol. II, pp. 281 - 282.)

I cannot say FR Mustangs were fair opponent for the Germans. Always in unfavourable position, pilots trained to reconnaisance and not to dog-fight, sometimes not fit to fighter units.

In other cases, the numerical superiority would not save the Allies from sustaining bitter losses - like on US 4th FG’s last mission on 6 June 1944. David Clark writes that “P-51s of 334th FS, 335th FS and 336th FS of the US 8th AF 4th FG tangled with 10 Fw 190s. . .” (“Angels Eight”, p. 42.) I don’t know why Clark states that 10 P-51s were lost - due to “mechanical failure, a collision and heavy flak”. 4th FG’s report clearly states that there were “only” seven losses, and that most - if not all - were shot down by German fighters:

The black day of 4FG is a quite well known episode but I would not follow your conclusions as to units engaged. It was a real mess. It is interesting to note that the German unit, JG2, performed quite well on the Invasion Front, despite not having Eastern Front experience.
I may add, that on the next day 355FG was also hit hard. But could you explain me what are you going to prove?

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Franek

Thanks for your reply to my post concerning Wurmheller. I appreciate your information that only one other loss is recorded for that date and it appears to have occured at a different location than the loss of Wurmheller. If I too remember correctly, the events were that his formation was escorting fighter-bombers when attacked by the Spitfire fighters of 411 Sqn, RCAF. His fighter went into a rapid climb but was attacked from above by F/O JW Fleming and exploded. I would like to thank you as well for your information concerning the unit involved in the loss of Weber.

Horrido!

Leo

[Franek Grabowski]

Leo
The general problem is almost complete lack of accounts and documents from the German side. I cannot exclude that the circumstances of Wurmheller loss were different and even that he was not lost that day but as yet I think we must rely on Allied records and suplement them with known German data.
There is a lot to be done by the German researchers to document this period.
PS Any particular interest in Weber?

[dahiot daniel]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

This does not deny the fact 361 FG could fight with JG11.

Oberfeldwebel KOKISCH Heinz

After long month of researches in the region of Rennes to find Fw 190 of the Oberfeldwebel KOKISCH Heinz.

It was never found. The Oblt Fritz Engau to confuse with the loss of Uffz. Folger come across the front of invasion and buried to Rennes.

Oberfeldwebel KOKISCH that here was dead 8 June 44. (1st place of buried : cemetery of East of Caen. Banneville-la-Campagne, X, B - 4. 2st place of buried it 09/06/1944, cemetery of the La Cambe, block 30-6- 228.)

Without doubt loss in the morning of 8 June during its mission on it Riva Bella ?
Source documentation : (dossier KOKISCH Heinz) Wast Deutsche Dienststelle.

Dan

post edited by Ruy Horta

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Franek

Thanks for your kind explanation concerning the gaps in known information relative to the day and period in question. As you pointed out, it may be that Wurmheller actually did collide with his wing man as is most often stated but if we take into account this Allied information we have the possibility that he was indeed shot down. As to Weber, I am interested in JG 51 aces in particular among those of the Luftwaffe and am always on the look-out for information about them. In the case of Weber, since he was a 100 plus victory ace, including many with the Fw 190 and his unusual end. I knew that he was killed by Polish flown RAF Mustangs but did not know the specific squadron that was involved until your post. As an aside, it is noteworthy how so many JG 51 aces began to increase their tallies upon conversion to the Fw 190, such as Brendel, Josten, Schack and Weber among others.

Horrido!

Leo

[Franek Grabowski]

Dan
Do you have exact crash locations? I understand that Kokisch was buried in the nearest cemetery,

Leo
What would you say about particular pilot?

[dahiot daniel]

Franek,


The burial Banneville-la-Campagne was used for all soldiers die in the region of Caen.

Impossible for the moment to know the place excat of the crash of KOKISCH Heinz.
It is well difficult to determine in this period after Day J in Normandy a such crash. Thousands of crashs on this territory.

[Franek Grabowski]

Dan
I am not sure if I understood you correctly but it seems strange for me. I would expect the body to be buried at crashsite or the nearest cemetery initially and only then to reinterr it on a big one. Hmm.

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Franek

I will take the liberty of sharing the combat report of F/O Fleming kindly provided to me through e-mail by Ota Jivorec. I hope that you find it as interesting as I did.

22nd June 1944
441 Squadron
Spitfire IXB
1440 hours
Southeast of Domfront
One FW 190 destroyed

I was flying on the port side of Black Leader as Black 5. I sighted
two aircraft on the deck and immediately went down on them.

I took the leading aircraft and opened fire at approximately 400
yards. He broke immediately, and pulled straight up in the air. I
held my fire and, when within 50 yards of him, I saw strikes and
then he blew up. I flew through the debris and, upon returning to
base, found that a piece had been knocked off the tip of my
propeller. Also, only one cannon had fired.

I claim one FW 190 destroyed.

J.W. Fleming, Flying Officer

No assurance that it was Wurmheller but it may very well be describing the last moments of one of the Luftwaffe's greatest aces. Thank you Ota! As to Weber, I will limit myself to say that as he was one of only nine aces that claimed over a hundred victories with JG 51 he is of definite interest to me. I believe that he was a experienced and skilled veteran who flew over 500 missions and claimed 88 victories in 1943 and 26 in 1944, at a time when skilled Russian pilots had developed flying what were to be the primary types flown by the VVS such as the Il-2, LaGG-3, LaGG-5, Yak-7, Yak-9 and Pe-2. Most of his victims apperantly were the various Lavochkin and Yakovlev fighters, which would lead one to assume that he was skilled in air to air combat with enemy fighters. It is my personal opinion that one cannot draw conclusions as to the relative merits of air combat on the two fronts based upon the eventual fate of individual German aces. However, the fact remains that Weber was killed in action on his first mission over the Invasion Front. In my personal opinion, what this episode demonstrates is that even having the experience of over 500 missions and 136 victories against capable opponents is no guarantee of invincibility when facing well trained, experienced and skilled pilots flying excellent fighters, who did not necessarily always need rely upon numerical superiority to achieve success. After all, in the interest of fairness, it is my understanding that Weber and his comrades were also badly outnumbered on the Eastern Front as well. I would be pleased to read what you would have to write about this as you are a regular contributor to this board with far greater knowledge about the Luftwaffe than I do.

Horrido!

Leo

[Ota Jirovec]

Perhaps I should add that this Combat Report of F/O Fleming was published in excellent John Foreman´s Fighter Command War Diaries, Volume 4. By the way, does anyone have a more accurate location of Wurmeheller crash than a rather vague Alencon area? After all, Domfront is still some 50 km WNW of Alencon although the location "Southeast of Domfront" makes the distance a little shorter.....

Ota