Photos 3-9

[David E. Brown]

Hi Eric,

I believe that you are correct in your thoughts that the R4M-träger in our book and the aircraft in this new photo are the same aircraft.

I came to this conclusion after spending some time comparing the various images of this aircraft. The photo of it on its belly must have been taken at a later date when it was being salvaged, but enough of it is visible to copare it with the one in our book.

Regarding the markings, photos of "we.<61" show an interesting feature. On the port side of the aircraft, the code is displayed as "<61". Yet on the starboard side it is the mirror image "61>". The number "57" is of the same style and size in all the images. Given the above observation, the new D-11 photograph in all probability had the code "57>" on the starboard side but can't be seen in this image.

I believe that there are enough comperable features in the photos of this aircraft to conclude that it was not an Fw 190 D-9 attached to I./JG 301 and Dave Wadman and I originally interpreted, but a rare Fw 190 D-11, WNr.220011, "we.<57" of the Verbandführeschule General der Jagdflieger.

A significant question remains: What was this unit doing with aircraft equipped with this weapon? There are some obvious possible explanations but certainly more reseach is needed.

All the best with the book!

Cheers,

David

[F19Gladiator]

Looking closely at the Fw 190 D "White 57" image when enlarged, I notice there is a bright mark just ahead of the number "57", almost covered by the trailing edge of the wing. Positioned ahead of the rectangular patch placed mid-level of the "7", the angle and position corresponding what could be the lower end of a chevron. Place and angle could (perhaps) indicate the possibility of the ac carrying a white chevron ahead of the number "57"?
Given the heavy exhaust staining from the engine, the lower end of the chevron ought to be stained, which according to my image interpretation might be the case. Perhaps a closer look at an enlargment of the original can tell.

Only my vivid imagination, or can someone else see something similar???

Any way, I would be very surprised if this would turn out NOT to be the D-11 WNr.220011.

[Micke D]

Hi Dora fans!

I must say that I have to disagree with both David E. Brown and Eric Larger about this new photo.
I do not think that the new EBay photo of the “White 57” loaded with R4M rockets and the older one shown in Experten Decals No. 3, are the same aircraft.

I think that they most likely have belonged to the same unit and have been photographed at the same place and time.
But I guess that it will be difficult to say which unit they must have belonged to, what might be a tail band on the photo in E-D No. 3 is certainly not present on the photo of “White 57”, so it doesn’t easily say what unit these planes came from.

I can’t really say that I think the trees positions are the same in the two photos. “White 57” from the new photo looks to be in a clearing, and the Dora from E-D No. 3 seems to be farther in under the trees.

David E. Brown says that the photo that they published in Experten Decals No. 3 is the same plane as “White 57”, but photographed at an earlier date, with canopy and wheel covers attached.
I have read somewhere that allied troops removed the canopies from captured Fw 190’s because of the explosive charge under the canopy. But I can’t really see the reason why anyone should remove the lower wheel covers and the canopy and not the rockets on “White 57”?

I’m not sure if the photo of “White 57” shows a D-9 or D-11, -12, -13. The supercharger air intake seems to be of the longer, bigger type used on the Jumo 213F equipped D-11, -12, -13’s, but it’s difficult to say with branches from a small tree covering parts of it.
I think the upper part of the nose of “White 57” looks flatter than a D-9.
I’m sure that the Dora in E-D No. 3 is a D-9, because it has MG 131’s in front of the wind screen.

We know from a photo, in Axel Urbanke’s “Green Hearts first in combat with the Dora 9”, that JG 26 received R4M rockets at the very last days of the war. And from written sources, shown by Brown and Wadman on Experten Decals website, that JG 301 was going to receive some D-9’s with R4M rockets from JagdGruppe 10, who had been tested this rocket system on the Fw 190D.
Both JG 26 and JG 301 seem to have been very good at painting tail bands on all or at least most of their planes, so the lack of tail bands on these planes could possibly be because for some reason they never left JGr 10, or somehow founds their way to Verbandführerschule General der Jagdflieger.

I really hope that it will be possible to see the W.Nr. of this plane some day.

Best wishes,
Micke D

[Eric Larger]

Hello Micke , David


I know , new photos of FW 190D-11 , White < 57, < 61 , <<- ..... Showing details you cannot see on the published photo of these machines .

white 57 on port side regarding the angle of the photo in Experten Decals #2 is taken, sould not be visible (and this is what we saw on the photo) , only the upper right corner of the last digit is painted on the fuselage access door .

Now White < 57 W.nr 220011 , and this white 57 could be 2 different machines ,the latter replacing the former one ... Why not ?

There are connections between III./ EJG2 , VFS der GdJ , JG110 and JV 44 . All units were close for each others . We did mentionned in "Fw 190D , Camouflage and marking , Part 1 " , several flights done by Otto Leisner , and ex-JG300 pilot , sent to EJG2 for training on Me 262 , on FW 190D-11 at Bad Wörishofen .... Now what were the links between all these units ? up to now we do not have any clear answer .

As I said to all of you there are too much remaining questions , to have a clear point of view on the subject .

The book is on its way , working hard on it , the last steps ...

All the best

Eric

[cproyston]

I too have spent a fair amount of time studying this image over the weekend, and I am inclined to agree with Micke D. The aircraft is neither D-11 White 57>, nor the E-D R4M D.

I also agree that it was probably photographed in the same location as the R4M D, probably serving with the same unit.

His observations are exactly as those I made, although I'm not sure the rockets themselves are visible on the racks, the white "L" shape visible under the wing is, I believe, just the edges of the wooden rack.

The highness (if that's the right word) of the number "57" is, I think, possibly the biggest clue to the (unknown) unit ID. I have never seen a long-nose with a number this high that wasn't a trials or test airframe. Perhaps Eric or David can confirm this.

Whatever this aircraft turns out to be, it's a fascinating and exciting photograph,

Regards,
Chris

[Eric Larger]

This is what I said previously there are more remaining questions than clear evidences .

it s sure that this machine was built by Focke Wulf (FW 190D-9 or FW 190D-11) .

There are evidences that at least one a/c went from JGr10 to II./JG300 ( FW 190A-8 , found in Bayreuth Bindlach) , see J.Y Lorant 's book on JG300 , part 2 (french edition) .

These high tactical numbers are often recorded by VFS der GdJ (in log books see 'Fw 190D Camouflage and markings , Part 1 pages 180 to 190 ) .

Other discussion to come later , but yes it is a very interesting aircraft .

Eric

[Micke D]

Eric Larger wrote:

The MG 131 you mentionned in Experten decals #2 , according to me are not machine guns but the upper right part of one of the port side tanks , look carefully at the location , and compare it with another photo of FW 190D-9 with the gun cowl opened .

I have to see if I have any good photos of D-11 and/or D-13 with that cowling open at home, you could be right about that not being the guns.
I have always thought that the open cowling in the photo in Experten Decals booklet No. 3 is to flat to be on an Fw 190D-9.

/Micke D

[hikki]

Hi everyone,

Here is the answer.

Regards,

Hideki Noro

[Eric Larger]

Hi Hideki

I recheck this evening all versions of this photo I have and you are right , this is a FW 190D-9 , I did not see this week-end a detail on the gun cowl , there is a circular bump , as on many FW 190D-9 built by Focke Wulf . Look at the picture attached .

This is an option I kept in mind as some similary painted FW 190D-9s, were found at Bremen with flat canopy (Eagle file, Dora of the Galland Circus , page 45) .

That does not solve other questions .

Eric

[Fernando Estanislau]

Surprisingly, the auction ended with no bids. After so many complaints concerning bidding opportunities, it is noticeable that no one took the chance of having the image in hands to analyze.

Can someone explain?