Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please

[Jesters-Ink]

Thanks GRM, what percentage of certainty would you place on the triple chevron being the Works number you have there? And is there any chance of finding out the pilots name at all? I know I ask a lot and you have already given us plenty, but it would be handy to know.

[Von Alles]

Thank you George and John for help about T6+AD !!!

von Alles

[G.R.Morrison]

Originally Posted by Jesters-Ink

...what percentage of certainty would you place on the triple chevron being the Works number you have there? And is there any chance of finding out the pilots name at all? ...

Well, when the marking and WNr. and location appear on a document, you can be relatively certain. I use the wiggle-room of 'relatively' because a typo can occur to anyone, and even the "official" documents and loss lists contain them. Transposed numbers are not uncommon. This is ANOTHER thing that makes our db so useful, its sorting ability -- but it also reveals sometimes-frustrating anomalies as well...

Now as to determining the pilot's name: who an aircraft is prepared for and who flies it are not necessarily the same pilot. When examining logbooks, one can observe that a pilot may test-fly or transfer an aircraft for a single flight; in other instances he may use the same airframe for months at a time. Lacking Muencheberg's logbook, there can be no confirmation that he was flying this machine on that date. Here's a perfect Desert example: Schroer was the Staffelkapitaen of the 8./JG 27. He was photographed with "schwarze 1" in the late summer of 1942 (I'm not refering here to his later "rote 1" that he was flying on Rhodes). But on the day he claims six P-40s, he's flying "schwarze 6" -- see what I mean?

This does not, probably, provide you with the absolute certainty you hoped for, but as you venture further down the road of history, certainties seem to become less frequent. I tend to look at much of history as "What I THOUGHT I knew." Now the good news is, maybe someday another piece of the puzzle presents itself. The bad news is very much of Luftwaffe documentation is gone -- but that makes the hunt all the more intriguing! As Jim reminded us, remember 20 years ago. We're much richer today -- we have a board like this one!

HTH, GRM

[Stig Jarlevik]

Dear All

Late as always, when looking in Jagdwaffe Vol 4 Sec 4 (publ in 2004) the aircraft has been "downgraded" a bit to "thought to have been abandoned at Catania in July 1943" and "possibly flown by Gustav Rödel". Two photos shown, right side only...very typical of course, since the three view drawing here shows the left side. Jagdwaffe shows the right side in their colour profile and this WITHOUT any JG 27 marking.

With ref to GRM and his thoughts about WNr 10645, Prien in his JG 77 Vol 3 quotes a British report that it was found on Melacha airfield on 22.1.1943 and only fuselage remains was found. Importantly this report seems NOT to mentioned the digit 4, but ONLY the three chevrons. This find should also be put in context with the initial report by Luftwaffe that it was only slightly damaged (25%) at an unknown base when it crashlanded 1.12.1942. Also the two published photos shows, to me, an aeroplane that has made a ground loop (look at the landing gear...) which also, to me, is NOT indicative of a crashlanding, but maybe the German language in reports was rather unprecise. Neither does the photos look like the aeroplane has hit any obstacle, but again they are onesided and it would be very interesting to have a look at the other side. Has anyone any reference where the left side is shown?

So GRM I still have doubts about the ID of the WNr being correct, but I am in favour of those who say it is from JG 77 and not JG 27.

Unfortunately Jagdwaffe does NOT say from where THEIR pictures originate. The two lightly clad individuals could be from either side, but IF the photos were taken by the British then the aeroplane is deff not captured under "fuselage parts". If it is German photos, well....

Cheers
Stig

[Jim P.]

Bruchlandung; Bodenverhaeltnisse should not be crashlanding hit obstruction, but crashlanding due to severe/unfavorable ground conditions (i.e potholes, bomb fragments, shellholes or some such occurence).

[F19Gladiator]

Stig, in post No.4 above I put in a ref on the port side:
"Aviation Elite Units 12, Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika', John Weal, Page 89:...."

Also regarding capture: One photo clearly shows a P-40 in the background marked CU o ?

[Stig Jarlevik]

OK Guys

Jim P, thanks for the better translation of the crashlanding. The photos in my source looks much more like your translation.

F19,do you have the source I gave? I don't have the Osprey volume you quote. If you have you should quite easily be able to compare the two sources and say if they are the same aeroplane or not. If you DON'T, what does the aeroplane look like in Osprey? Are the triple chevrons visible? Is the small digit 4 visible? Is any unit markings visible?

According to the British source who found the abandoned WNr 10645 only fuselage parts was documented as remaining. No unit could be stated by them either.

As said earlier I have still doubts that the WNr listed as 10645 is the same one as we are loking at in our various photos, but...

Cheers
Stig

[F19Gladiator]

Hi Stig,
Yes, I have the Jagdwaffe 4/4 - But not accessible from where I am now!

The picture of the port side published on p.89 in Osprey Av. Elite Units No. 12 is according to my opinion the very same aircraft: "Tripple Chevron White 4". The Chevron and "4" being identical to the starboard pictures I earlier referred to.
All of the port fuselage is visible, but the tail is unfortunately not shown. Upper sides of both wings also appear.
Position of ac on the ground, the ground surface, prop position and status, flaps position etc etc all match with the other pics I quoted as reference.
The picture is of poor quality but even under a magnifying glass I can not find any emblem on the cowling.

The status of the aircraft as seen in the three pictures I have available is more complete than mere "fuselage parts" as all major components are in place. Perhaps the British report referes to another ac?
Would be interesting to know where The Luftwaffe Museum in Gatow got the inspiration from to adorn the replica of theirs with W.Nr. 10575 ??
I better write them and ask what mtrl they have.

I suspect the photos have been taken by Allied soldiers, as on one picture a parked P-40 marked with "CY" code is clearly visible. If someone knows the P-40 unit it might help narrowing down the location alternatives?

Stig, if you send me your email address I will reply.

[F19Gladiator]

Originally Posted by F19Gladiator

Stig, in post No.4 above I put in a ref on the port side:
"Aviation Elite Units 12, Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika', John Weal, Page 89:...."

Also regarding capture: One photo clearly shows a P-40 in the background marked CU o ?

Sorry P-40 ac code shall be "CY" not "CU"

[Jesters-Ink]

Thanks for taking the time to continue this project guys, I can't move on it until I know more about it. What can be done on the drawing is done, so it rests on the data now.