Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz

[@irnimal]

Hi Getlemen,
This is a great thread, very interesting discussion. Of all of us participating in this debate, I'll bet I'm the newest guy in town.
Many things have been mentioned here about the reasons why overclaiming occurred. Not going into that that because it is fairly obvious the various reasons for it to have happened (and if the cenario repeated itself today the same things would have happened again).
For me and , do I dear to suppose, for most of us it's to know how the war, and it's individual combats, panned out. Nothing can be known without proper research.
That is why I love the works of Christopher Shores, Brian Cull. Christer Bergstrom's work is also amazing. But when it comes to the Eastern Front the work needed to have something resembling the style of Chis Shores will be herculean. The amount of data that needs to be checked will take forever. Don't know how many of you Gentlemen are actually doing research in the area (and what I mean is, actually researching Soviet Loss/Combat Reports), but if we don't get together and actually do it, this will never be possible in our lifetime.
I've been researching mainly the Loss Files (the quickest way of building up data, and a picture of what happened), for the last 6~7 years. From time to time I also take a look at the combat reports, but that is vero time consuming task for someone that doesn't speak Russian (but that doesn't stop me).
Unless some of us actually come together and work towards this goal, if possible with Russian speaking people to help and do this, we will continue with these fruitless discussions about this topic.
Myself, I would like to see for future generations something like a ''Chris Shores like'' chronicle of the Eastern Front Air War.
Sorry about my bluntness, but I think that we need to get something done.
In the meantime, I'll continue with my own research, enjoy all the discussions that do go on in this site and contribute with whatever I can.
Cheers,
Paulo

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by NickM

MOST fighter bombers didn't get anywhere near the areas covered by the Migs. And like you said, staying at altitude kept the Migs in THEIR preferred performance envelope--and given the Migs were both higher AND further north than most UN interdiction ops, I didn't see them having an impact on it. The only place the MiGs did have a huge impact was against the B29 force--but that's what they were made for: "Can Openers" for the bombers.

The books I read about it from the Soviet (Russian) side takes a bit different view about it.
They don't subscribe to any 5 - 1 superiority from the US/UN side, not even if we only count MiGs vs F-86.
Quite a few fighterbombers in there as well!
But perhaps you have much more detailed information that I lack?
Would just love to have a correct loss figure, such as Soviet, Chinese, North Korean c/n and
where/how each aircraft was lost.

Cheers
Stig

[Nick Beale]

If you want to analyse claims in Korea, I think we had quite a long thread about in the "Post-war Aviation" section a couple of years back so it's probably worth giving the search function a try.

[HGabor]

Originally Posted by @irnimal

Hi Getlemen,

But when it comes to the Eastern Front the work needed to have something resembling the style of Chis Shores will be herculean. The amount of data that needs to be checked will take forever. Don't know how many of you Gentlemen are actually doing research in the area (and what I mean is, actually researching Soviet Loss/Combat Reports), but if we don't get together and actually do it, this will never be possible in our lifetime.


...


Myself, I would like to see for future generations something like a ''Chris Shores like'' chronicle of the Eastern Front Air War.
Sorry about my bluntness, but I think that we need to get something done.

Paulo

We have already put something on the table on this-> Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45 which is ground breaking and simply unparalleled in detail for the Eastern Front (1944-1945). The closest similar book for the Eastern Front would be the works of our forum member Carl Guest, yet he specializes in mainly in the Winter War so early war. A work like Chirs Shores for the Eastern Front would be impossible (too much information, too little time no matter how many people you through at the task, the scale just does not compare, let the troubles to gain access to that quantity of information) and impractical (you would physically need a dedicated library to house the books, it would be too expensive to produce and next to no one would buy the entire corpus... much more realistic would be to go to TsAMO and read the documents you specifically want). If one picks up a copy of Verified Victories, they will quickly realize why it is impossible to write like that for the entire Eastern Front! ~1 page per claim! The JFV series is an average of ~500 pages per book and ~ 20 have been published so far, thats "only" 10,000 pages (!!!), so still not enough to cover the Eastern Front's claims in detail.

If one looks at Prien et al. and his series of books, even they reduced the scope down to only the fighter units and that is taking decades, will span over 20+ books, and is forced to lighten its detail level by offering briefer texts on the units compared to his dedicated units chronicles. There is simply too much. Christer Bergström's book series on the Eastern Front is also forced to make those trade-offs... less focus on the individual aircraft losses and claim analysis and more on the general course of the air war with useful personal accounts by those who were there over the Eastern front in the given period of time he is writing about. For our book Verified Victories we chose to go detailed into 1 specific subject over 1 country, that is why it presents unprecedented levels of detail into claiming and victory analysis. Doing the same thing for the entire Eastern Front is simply not an option. Broad vs deep. All encompassing vs surgically specific. These are the trade-offs one has to make as an author, and one the reader must be willing to purchase...that is the balancing game we play.


But this is not about Hans Hahn/Maximilian Stotz...



Cheers!

[BrianC]

Hi guys - specifically Paulo!

Since I rarely receive any positive comments on this Forum, I thought that I should thank Paulo for his kind words!

I don't intend to become involved in this debate, I just wish to advise those who may be interested that my latest effort is due out this year:

AIR WAR OVER THE ARCTIC: Murmansk and the PQ Convoys, 1941-1942

with co-authors Michael Barrentine (Nokose), Val Smirnov and Igor Borisenko (Stig Jarlevik was an original contributor); to be published by Fonthill.

The ten-year study will hopefully provide a day-by-day account of German, Russian and British aerial operations in the Far North theatre.

Stay safe
Happy New Year
Brian

[Nokose]

Since this thread is about Maximilian Stotz, I will try to add some information about him that I researched. This all occurred in the area of Volosovo, according to Russian reports as many German pilots of JG 54 left out the location.
18 August 1941
Oberfeldwebel Maximilian Stotz 4/JG 54 DB-3 (17) 10:50
Gefreiter Heinrich Wegers 4/JG 54 DB-3 (4) 10:50

Soviet losses:
DB-3 1 MTAP (5 AE) KBF Starshiy Leytenant Pavel Babin (MIA)
DB-3 1 MTAP (5 AE) KBF Leytenant Valentin Klyuev (MIA)

Oberfeldwebel Maximilian Stotz 4./JG 54 I-18 (18) 10:58

Soviet loss:
MiG-3 5 IAP KBF Mladshiy Leytenant Pavel Titov (MIA)

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

The books I read about it from the Soviet (Russian) side takes a bit different view about it.
They don't subscribe to any 5 - 1 superiority from the US/UN side, not even if we only count MiGs vs F-86.
Quite a few fighterbombers in there as well!
But perhaps you have much more detailed information that I lack?
Would just love to have a correct loss figure, such as Soviet, Chinese, North Korean c/n and
where/how each aircraft was lost.

Cheers
Stig

No book ideas from me, at least not off the top of my head...BUT there was a well discussed thread RE: the Mig v F86 question right here:


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ghlight=Mig+15


Far smarter people than I will ever be 'parsed over' and 'teased out' the threads of this subject.

[@irnimal]

QUOTE=HGabor;325537]We have already put something on the table on this-> Verified Victories: Top JG 52 Aces Over Hungary 1944-45 which is ground breaking and simply unparalleled in detail for the Eastern Front (1944-1945).[/quote]

Gabor, I have your book. What a fabulous piece of work. That is what I'm talking about (Sorry, didn't mention your work in my previous post). I know that there are a lot of people doing the research, but if only there was a way to join it all in big database like ''thing''.....

[Nokose]

19 August 1941
Soviet 7 IAK sent to defend Krasnogvardeysk 10 I-16 from 157 IAP. They were pounced by 4 Bf 109 that came out of the clouds . The German fighters then departed from the fight. Leytenant Fedor Bondarenko escaped by parachute and ended up in the Hospital.

Oberfeldwebel Maximilian Stotz 4/JG 54 I-16 (19) 18:00 no location

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by NickM

No book ideas from me, at least not off the top of my head...BUT there was a well discussed thread RE: the Mig v F86 question right here:


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ghlight=Mig+15


Far smarter people than I will ever be 'parsed over' and 'teased out' the threads of this subject.

Ah yes Nick
I remembered that thread but I couldn't find it.
The problems with it are many.
I tried to look up various sites mentioned back in 2007 and basically all of them are now gone.
Since the thread went on until 2011 I didn't chase up every year....
Most probably a lot of new information has been coming out of Russia, perhaps even China, but I
don't have much of that. And even if I did, we would probably have the same problem there as well,
official data where one does everything to hide the real truth.....

I am now off this Korean discussion since we stray more and more from the given heading.

Michael!
Thanks for keeping us on track!!

Cheers
Stig