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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#31
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Re: Aces and overclaiming
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Of course, and US ones and British ones and worsest, French ones. ;> |
#32
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Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
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I would also agree that the best German fighter pilots were not better that the best Allied pilots. I agree with the sentiment that German pilots had more oportunity for combat. Quote:
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#33
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Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
[quote=david Cotton]Hello
I understand where you are comming from. However, I would of thougt that combat fategue would start to arode the advantage of greater combat experence. Quote:
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#34
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Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
Speaking about people being overrated. . .
I think Gollob is quite overrated. I mean the Polish Gollob. In my hometown Eskilstuna, yesterday 2 August. See: http://www.speedwayworld.tv/en/swc/a4872 |
#35
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Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
I thought "Besserwisser" could be translated as "know it all." It's an interesting thread.
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#36
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Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
Hello
Thanks for reading my post in detail. Your opinions certainly gave me much to consider. Regarding Soviet aircraft quality. I think the YAK 3 and YAK9 could be considered competitive. They certainly narrowed the difference in performance that had existed around 1941 and 1942. Regarding BoB pilots. A pilot with 50 hours would still be more hunted than hunter. I don’t think the Germans were having to commit low trained fighter pilots into the battle. However, I may be wrong there. I will pop up Hawking museum and have a chat with the guys up there as well. Regarding German Pilot training. Were they really trained that bad? I mean Hartmen, limpfert , Knoke were all products of the war time training. JG26 and JG2 held the RAF in check until the USAAF came on the scene. Was the lack of instrument and night flying really that critical ? I would agree that there was safe ( as it could be) for the Germans up till January 1944 ish. It must have been a surprise to find allied fighters in what you would of thought was a safe area. Allied fighters could fly from the western front to the eastern front. However, I think you are right, this would of only really had a real effect once allied fighters were reaming over all German territory. By then the war was already lost. I would surmise that it was simply to few pilots being trained. The numbers were probably just adequate until the USSAF joined the battle. Regarding Marselle tactics. I did not think that he was renown for getting up close for the no deflection shot. There is a lot of risk from flying debris when you come in close from behind. I think this was a Hartman tactic and he got downed a few times from debris if I remember right. I still of the opinion that Marselle was deadly because of his deflection shooting. Regarding Hofer. If he did get shot down by flack, then that makes non of the top aces in the Eighth lost in air to air combat. Regarding Different planes. I am thinking on the lines of say Preddy v Hartmann. Preddy may not have the same combat hours but the mustang would of given him an edge that may have equalled the fight. Regards David |
#37
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Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
Hello
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Also, it was not so one sided combat before the arrival of the Americans but the subject needs some further research. Finally, instrument training was critical during the Normandy campaign. Weather was very poor and several airmen failed to find their airfields, not to mention targets! This resulted with serious losses without enemy action. The risk was further increased, because they were unable to keep formation and got dispersed, this resulting with more losses. Quote:
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Best wishes |
#38
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Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
Hello
Regarding Quality of YAK3. I am surprised that the YAK3 only performed as per Spitfire V trop . I have read, in a book by Bill Gunston, that the Luftwaffe issued a general directive to avoid combat below 5000M with the YAK3. I think that most Russian front combat was at low level, as it was a primarily a ground attack air force. I have the YAK3 with a top speed of 404 MPH and later 447MPH, which is not bad. I do not have any stats on speeds at heights. It would be interesting to see how the YAK 3 performance compared with its opponents at low levels. Regarding Pilot Training. Yes I remember reading that often Bomber Pilots were used to guide German Fighters to the target. However, I always thought this was very late in the war. I assume that instrument training was initially given and then was stopped at some point. When was this ? The reason I think it was initially given, is because I have read German fighter pilot report where the pilot talks of using instruments in bad weather. One of these was a report by Marselle. Regarding the one sided combat before the arrival of America. Agreed. However, the JG2 and JG26 seemed to be able to cope with the British. I have read that post was research has indicated a kill ratio of 3:1 in favour of the Germans. This was once the British went onto the offensive. On the Dieppe raid the Germans still managed to inflict a 2:1 kill ratio in their favour. I still think that only once the USA got up and running the Germans started to loose the numbers game with regard to replacement pilots. Regarding Deflection Shooting. Marselle’s early combat career was not that good. However, he seemed to understand where he was deficient and worked on those area. It would seem that defection shooting in Marselles case was self taught. Regarding P51. I am not sure If I agree here. The better performance allows an expert pilot to have more options. Adversely, a lower performance must reduce the number of tactics he can use. For me the P51 was the plane that destroyed the Luftwaffe in the west. Regarding Hofer. I find it interesting that the German Airforce did not shoot down any of the renown Eigth Airforce aces. Maybe it was because the German Pilots were trying to get to the bombers and were more interested in avoiding the escort. I have also read that the Luftwaffe tactic of waiting for the fighters to turn back allowed Allied Fighter Pilots to gain experience. If they had hit the bombers early and taken on the fighter escort the fledgling pilots may never had the chance to get good. Nice talking with you David |
#39
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Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
Hello
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Speed curves for low level (first stage of supercharger) are quite similar for Spitfire V, Spitfire IX, Me 109G or Yak-3. Speed is not the only parameter though. Soviet aircraft lacked range, automatics, good radio, sometimes armament. Some researchers, willingly or not, do unfair comparisons of Soviet aircraft with limited load with western aircraft with full load - be awared. It is worth to note here that Soviet report on combat with P-38s in the late 1944 mentions Yak-9s were less manouverable than P-38s in dog fight but superior in vertical manouvers. Quote:
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I have not seen any such report. Quote:
I think British offensive is a subject to be researched, together with involved ratios. Also the reason of German loss is a little more complicated than the US presence only. Quote:
I do not know. Quote:
Yes, but it was primarily due to its superior range allowing to patrol over enemy airfields. Quote:
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On the other hand Allies would inflict losses on the Germans - that was the reason they waited. Best wishes |
#40
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Re: MARSEILLE his last kill
Two things:
1. In all the excitement, did anyone ever actually come up with an answer to the original question in this thread? 2. The discussions about skill and experience seemed to be passing over combat fatigue/stress. People can only take so much. For very good reasons, the RAF and USAAF flew operational tours; the Luftwaffe kept people in action until death, injury or promotion supervened. Read Robert Forsyth's "JV 44, The Galland Circus" and you come away with the feeling that some of the "greats" were burned out by 1945. |
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