Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Hi.

I have been working on these issues for several years, and think you are in some cases in this thread overcomplicating, and in others oversimplifying.

With regards to the 'big numbers' - total losses - these are available for statistical use from a couple of sources.

I will see if I can provide some detailed information over the weekend.

Regards,
Andreas B

Hello Andreas.

I am sure I am doing both, since I have very little understanding of the limitations of the source material. Thank you for offering to provide information, I'm very interested!

Paul Thompson

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

IWM had some AHB 6 microfilms which I saw about 20 years ago at the Museum in Lambeth. Why not contact them and inquire what they have now?

Nick, thank you for remembering that from so many years ago! I'll definitely contact them, possibly next week.

I've found the reference in question in Hooton's "Eagle in Flames". It is the source for "Table 40. Breakdown of Aircraft Losses, April 1941-June 1944" on page 156. The reference itself is as follows: "RAF Air Staff Post-Hostilities Studies, Book 21: 'Luftwaffe Activity I' (IWM Tin 192, fr.1071-85). Figures extrapolated from 'Einsatzbereitschaft der fliegende Verbaende'". The reference to extrapolation is somewhat disappointing, but Ted Hooton used other IWM sources which caught my interest.

The most interesting of those other sources appears to be a set of frames preceding the ones above. For example, "Luftwaffe Activity I, Vol. 1, IWM Tin 192, fr. 1041" is the source for "Table 53. Luftwaffe Activity on the Eastern Front, 1944" on page 205. The table shows the breakdown of sorties and losses by Luftflotte, sorted by aircraft mission categories.

Nevertheless, none of the above resembles the source mentioned by Artie Bob, so I would be very glad if he could give the reference for it.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Nick, thank you for remembering that from so many years ago! I'll definitely contact them, possibly next week.

The stuff I was looking at was in German, by the way and I wasn't looking for the things you are. Still, you can but ask.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

The stuff I was looking at was in German, by the way and I wasn't looking for the things you are. Still, you can but ask.

Nick, thanks for the words of caution. I hope my rudimentary German can stretch to looking at loss tables, but otherwise I'll have to see if I can use a dictionary on my laptop. By the way, I've worked out where I remember Duxford from. Hooton's 2010 Luftwaffe book contains 5 tables with references to "IWM, Duxford, Tin 30 Frames K3312-3356". The first of these is "Table 9-4: German fighter activity in the East 1944," which lists monthly sorties by day and night fighters. It also contains a very strange set of loss figures, but I'll refrain from commenting on those, hoping that Andreas introduces some clarity!

[Paul Thompson]

I've put Ted Hooton's loss data for 1944 into a table:
Luftflotte 1 460
Luftflotte 4 1055
Luftflotte 6 905
Luftflotte 2 816
Luftflotte Reich 4370
Luftflotte 3 4563

Total East 2420
Total West 9749

At last, some figures match. The 2nd table on the page on Don Caldwell's site contains essentially identical information:

http://don-caldwell.we.bs/jg26/thtrlosses.htm

[AndreasB]

On Kew and Duxford/IWM:

My understanding is that any file originating with the British forces is held in Kew. Captured enemy documents are held by the IWM and can be read in Duxford (on appointment), or in London (on appointment, they would be shipped from Duxford). The files in Duxford are the same (as far as I can tell) as the ones held in NARA (they are photostat copies of the NARA files, mostly in poor condition, with the exception of some originals. I do not believe they hold a lot of GAF stuff. You are allowed to use a camera at Duxford, but will likely struggle to do this in the IWM Reading Room in London.

Nick, the tip on the AHB files is supremely helpful - I was wondering where these were held.

I hope this helps.

All the best

Andreas

[Tony Jones]

Paul

The bound volumes in the private Library at IWM Duxford are titled "Air Ministry Weekly Intel Reports" In 1940 they list known German losses under headings 1) RAF "bomber/fighter/coastal" 2) French then 3) Dutch
The 1944 sample losses I copied was from 9/1/44 to 16/1/44

Regards

Tony

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Tony Jones

Paul

The bound volumes in the private Library at IWM Duxford are titled "Air Ministry Weekly Intel Reports" In 1940 they list known German losses under headings 1) RAF "bomber/fighter/coastal" 2) French then 3) Dutch
The 1944 sample losses I copied was from 9/1/44 to 16/1/44

Regards

Tony

Tony,

That sounds like a very good source. Am I correct in assuming that the German losses are those when aircraft crash sites were located, or at least clearly observed?

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[AndreasB]

Hope it wasn't just a re-typed version of this one?

All the best

Andreas

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by AndreasB

Hope it wasn't just a re-typed version of this one?

All the best

Andreas

Hello Andreas,

Hopefully not, but let's wait for Tony Jones to clear that up.
Meanwhile here is some data from AHB translation VII/152, in Air 20/7710: Luftwaffe Losses - Eastern Front (Sep/Dec 1943)

Month br Enemy Destr br Enemy Dam br Operations Destr br Operations Dam br Non-operational Dest br Non-operational Dam
September br 232 br 92 br 82 br 98 br 39 br 56
October br 205 br 106 br 73 br 105 br 20 br 52
November br 107 br 57 br 42 br 59 br 38 br 52
December br 110 br 46 br 23 br 36 br 42 br 54
4 Month sum br 654 br 301 br 220 br 298 br 139 br 214

Regards,

Paul Thompson