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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#31
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
But then how could they verify most claims of certain, really honest pilots and 'select' and then change the losses linked to eg. Hartmann? I don't think they knew all the time where Hartmann was. Selective approval/change of the loss reports for some opponent pilots just doesn't seem to be realistic to me.
Gabor |
#32
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
Quote:
It's pretty clear there is more to the Hartmann story, perhaps 10-percent of it has been told. Is there a possibility that Hartmann's over claims were part of a Luftwaffe propaganda effort? Bronc |
#33
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
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#34
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
While Soviets had a good radio intelligence service, and they knew lot on enemy aces and might well have picked up many of the Hartmann’s wingman’s confirmation messages, but does anyone believe that the commissars in 1940s believed that in one day Western researchers or as Soviets termed them in late 60s anf 70s "bourgeois history falsifiers" will be able to visit their archives? And that Soviets had interest to shift through their combat and loss records just in case to blacken Hartmann’s reputation 60-70 years later, but not that of e.g. Lipfert’s. One must remember that Hartmann was only 6th LW ace to achieve his 200th kill in early 1944, before that he probably wasn’t so special to Soviets before that. And Egorov’s article shows that Hartmann wasn’t especially accurate claimer even before his 200th kill.
Juha |
#35
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
Yes, there could be a still unknown Luftwaffe propaganda-effort to keep up the fighting moral, by creating a 'Superhero', like: "Gott (und Hartmann) mit Uns" :-))) to which Hartmann has willingly/unwillingly assisted. If so, there is still a lot to discover. (I do not know this, I am just guessing...!) But it is very unlikely that the war propaganda machine has worked with full speed only on the soviet side and hasn't on the German side.
Gabor |
#36
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
Hartmann religiously utilized a four-part method for engaging enemy aircraft: (1) Locate, (2) Decide (whether it was safe and prudent to attack), Attack (from behind with surprise), (4) Break away. As best as I can determine, Hartmann did not believe in dogfighting anything, or anyone, at any time, anywhere.
The hit and run, boom and zoom, break away approach to aerial combat maximizes your chances at survival, but it minimizes your time and opportunity to gain and verify a victory. Maybe Hartmann and his wingmen got into the habit of breaking away after the first squirt? The opposing aircraft nearly always went directionally downward after something like that... ---> Has anyone actually read any of Hartmann's reports or claims? What was he actually saying in them?? Wish we knew more... Bronc |
#37
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
That is just a myth raised by Toliver/Constable, in fact. A piece of war propaganda, nothing more.
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#38
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
Returning to Khazanov article. Lazarev lost his life in midair collision with Pe-2 on March 1, 1945. Sytov possibly, but Trenkel's claim at 10.35 seems to be preferable.
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#39
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
Hi Guys
Regarding that Hartmann was well regarded in the Bundesluftwaffe. He was known to be unpopular during WW2. I would assume it was because his overclaiming was suspected/known by his comrades, though there could be other reasons. All his claims seemed to be at altitude(thus lack of the most difficult and dangerous Sowiet aircraft to shout down, the Il-2), whereas all his comrades were involved in the more dangerous low-level/ground attack combat as per routine. Perhaps his comrades were jealous. Toliver/Constable by memory stated that Fritz Obleser had a problem with Hartmann's claims, this is just not true. Also not true is that Hartmann never lost a wingman. Those that have been sited as overclaimers have a certain pattern to there claims, which Hartmann has i.e many days of heavy/huge numbers, but a few claimers like this were actually honest. Almost all the honest pilots made few daily claims, or just a few heavy ones.....like Helmut Lipfert. Personally I think Hartmann was a lousy officer who's rank far outreached his leadership ability....perhaps another possible reason for being unpopular. Are we sure we have all the Russian losses before actually matching-up/or not Hartmann's claims?. I would say that a honest claimer should have two-thirds of his claims actually crash, the rest he thought had crashed. In fact would it not be his wingmans secondary job to see the crash and record it? Friedrich Geisshardt was unpopular, but not for his claiming. I have noticed that the leaders of scoring at any particular time over Russia seem to be the overclaimers, it would appear they would do as much overclaiming as was necessary to he the leader I guess. Also having a usual wingman must be a must, unless the whole staffel was on the fiddle and had some kind of system. Saying this having studied many logbook pilots usually flew as a Rotte or Schwarm, rarely a whole Staffel. Kind Regards Johannes |
#40
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims
Johannes,
That is the whole key: we must have ALL confirmed soviet losses before we start the analysis. And that's exactly the case for Hungary! It is a relative small area, so perfect for the project. For certain months we could obtain ALL soviet losses from ALL soviet air units (5, 17 VA documents from TsAMO archives, Russia), fighting over Hungary (daytime) that time. This made the whole claim-scanning possible in which Hartmann failed biiiiiiiiiiig time, and Lipfert passed with A+. (Sorry to mention these two "typical" pilots all the time, but certainly there are many others with their +/- scores too on the scale.) Gabor |
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