Strange case of Walter Dahl

[Karoband]

Thanks, Bronc. I think that puts an end to the alternative of Rechlin.

Jim

[knusel]

Good morning Gentlemen,

I have opened a Loos thread because I want to find out his maximum number of kills scored within JG301.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=43179

Cheers,

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

I'll look into the Loos comments. First attached a revised Dahl file, his book states 102-103 on 27th March 1945, yet already 110 on 4th April 1945, subtracting thirteen for those unconfirmed, then that for 4th April would be the ninety-seventh. Attachment 17199

Also his book supports the Leistungsbuch.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Flavio]

Hi Johannes,

according to your revised Dahl file, the "Viermots" listed are 27 (not 28) + 11 u/c. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thank you

Flavio

[MW Giles]

This is what I can find when you compare his claims against US missions.

30,1.45 General der flieger Obstlt B-17 raum Berlin Berlin area 1155
30,1.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-51 raum Berlin Berlin area 1200
8th AF did not do any operations on this date,nor did the 15th AF.
No MACRs match

31.1.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-51 raum Berlin Berlin area 1115
8th AF went to Brunswick, Bremen and Hallendorf
15th went to Moosebierbaum in Austria (300 miles away), smaller operations to Graz and Maribor
Only P-51 MACR is 11839 P-51D 44-13509 52FG Ralston Lake, Hungary

4,2.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-38 raum Berlin Berlin area 1400
8th AF 3 F-5s on recon, no losses
15th AF no operations took place
No MACRs match

4,3.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-51 raum Berlin Berlin area 935 150
8th AF went to Southern Germany
15th AF went to Hungary and Austria
RAF BC to Ruhr
No MACRs match

16,3.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-38 25km westlich Brandenburg 25km W Brandenburg 1025 1200
8th AF only minor operations
15th AF was in Austria and southern Germany (P-51s)
No MACRs match

27,3.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-47 westenrand Ammersee western bank of lake Ammer 1105 800
27,3.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-47 20km östlich München 20km E Munich 1100 100

8th AF only minor operations
15th AF no operations
Obviously more likely to be 9th AF or 1 TAF if it is a P-47
MACR 13673 P-47D 44-20593 367FG Redstock, Frankfurt
No MACRs match
III/EJG2 claimed six P-47s this day

29,3.45 General der flieger Obstlt B-17 raum Berlin Berlin area 1510 tiefflug
8th AF did no operations
15th AF did no operations
RAF BC to mid Germany
No MACRs for B-17s

20,4.45 General der flieger Obst P-51 raum München Munich area 1610 300
8th AF extensive operations
15th AF attacked Austria and Italy
MACR 14101 P-51D 44-72076 of the 354th FG lost Prague – wrong place

24,4.45 General der flieger Obst B-17 20km westlich München 20km W Munich 1030 1500
8th AF did no operations
15th AF were in Austria and Northern Italy
B-17 43-38685 lost on trip to Rheine – wrong place


26,4.45 General der flieger Obst P-51 25km südlich München 25km S Munich 1730 200
8th AF did no operations
15th AF were in Northern Italy
P-51 44-72967 of 354th FG lost dive bombing N of Raudnitz – wrong place and time

27,4.45 General der flieger Obst B-17 10km südöstlich München 10km SE Munich 1035 200
27,4.45 General der flieger Obst B-17 20km westlich Augsburg 20km W Augsburg 1240 300
8th AF did no operations
15th AF did no operations
No MACRs

28,4.45 General der flieger Obst P-51 10km südöstlich Salzburg 10km SE Salzburg 1230 5000
28,4.45 General der flieger Obst B-17 50km südöstlich Salzburg 50km SE Salzburg 1440 3500
8th AF did no operations
15th AF did no operations
No MACRs

30,4.45 General der flieger Obst B-17 20km nördlich München 20km N Munich 1630 6000 N 90 Me262
8th AF did no operations
15th AF did no operations
No MACRs

Sorry I do not have the knowledge to do the same for the Russians.

However as you can essentially dismiss 17 aircraft from his list, including 7 B-17s, why are we discussing whether he claimed his 99th or 100th on a particular date?

Having done this I firmly suspect that he was flying a mahogany fighter during this period

Martin

[Nick Beale]

However as you can essentially dismiss 17 aircraft from his list, including 7 B-17s, why are we discussing whether he claimed his 99th or 100th on a particular date?

That, Martin, is an excellent question and I look forward to any answers that may be forthcoming.

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

That, Martin, is an excellent question and I look forward to any answers that may be forthcoming.

Shows the value of losses vs claims research rather than just listing numbers alongside pilot's names without bothering to verify anything was actually shot down.

As for his claims against the Russians:

22.6.41/0430
"I-18"
W of Lemberg @ 1500m
23 or 28 IAP. Details pending

8.8.41/1330
DB-3
E of Majewo
11 DBAP? They suffered at least 5 losses, crews of Ml.Lt. A I Pykhtin, Serzhant A Evdokimov, Ml.Lt. P T Krashenninikov, Ml.Lt. Nikolay Ilyich Alimbarashvili and Serzhant N I Mineev all failed to return. Another possibility is 8 DBAP, crew of Lt. Ivan Yakovlevich Korovin which was definitely lost to fighters

24.8.41/0855
"I-180"
S of Zaporozhe
162 IAP? They lost Ml.Lt. Andrey Panteleevich Tsaplagin KIA this date

14.9.41/0605
I-153 "Tchaika"
Jelesawetowka/Mironovka area
44 IAD Staff. This was probably claimed against Leytenant Grigoriy Kotscha. Overclaiming, as he managed to escape (also appears to have been claimed by Gollob)

19.9.41/1357
SB-3
Kotschubjewka
Possibly 316 ORAP. Crew of Ml.Lt. Yaroslav Leonidovich Bratolyubov

Unconfirmed
2.4.42/1530
Hurricane ("Spitfire")
Malta
BV174 of 229 sqn. P/O Andrews returned to base with damage

26.8.42/0830
Yak-7B
NW of Stalingrad @ 800m
(Wilcke and Wessling claimed as well)
Were these claimed against 900 IAP? They lost Lt. Viktor Alekseyevich Saburov KIA

7.9.42/1536
La-5
SW of Achtuba (PQ 49283) @ 2500m
3 GIAP or 27 IAP, 287 IAD, 8 VA. Definitely 3 La-5s lost this date

19.9.42/1144
Yak
1km SE of Kotluban @ 500m
8 VA (1 Yak-7B lost) or 16 VA (6 Yak-1s and 1 Yak-7B lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA losses include Pavel Nikolaevich Bulaev of 520 IAP KIA and Ivan Yakovlevich Buldygin of 581 IAP

24.9.42/1103 and 1109
2 x Yak-1s
Stalingrad – Dubovka
8 VA (no known losses) or 16 VA (8 Yak-1s lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA's losses include Mikhail Stepanovich Bubnov of 43 IAP, Serzhant Peter Korneevich Sednev of 520 IAP and Ilya Mikhaylovich Yuzhakov (AE CO) of 812 IAP. All KIA

27.9.42/1603
Stalingrad @ 4500m
8 VA (1 IL-2 lost this date) or 16 VA (no known losses this date). 8 VA's loss was 944 ShAP, Serzhant Pavel Vasilyevich Sytov
(Wilcke also claimed, so one must be an overclaim)

14.10.42/0707 and 0715
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
20-25km NW of Stalingrad
Likely 245 ShAP. Losses include Evgeny Filippovich Baranov POW (liberated in January 1943). 954 ShAP lost Kapitan Arkady Ivanovich Buzev (AE CO) KIA
There were about 5 claims in total

17.10.42/0915
Yak-1
50km NE of Stalingrad @ 2000m
512 IAP. Starshiy Leytenant Ignatiy Biryukov

25.10.42/1039 and 1421
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Krasnoarmejsk – Stalingrad
686, 807 and 945 ShAP, 206 ShAD? (definitely in action this day). Losses include MSgt Sudarkin of 945 ShAP, forcelanded 5km S of Prishchevka (already damaged by Flak, finished off by a Bf109). 944 ShAP lost St. Serzhant Nikolay Sergeevich Smirnov KIA

26.10.42/1402, 1407, 1408 and 1412
4 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Stalingrad – Beketovka
Day's IL-2 losses include 206 ShAD's Sgt. Malyshev KIA over Sarpinskiy Island. 686 ShAP, 807 ShAP, 811 ShAP and 945 ShAP all in action this date. 505 ShAP lost Serzhant Alexei Nikolaevich Sipigin KIA this date 807 ShAP lost Pavel Dmitrievich Shurigin in an alleged taran this date

27.10.42/1000
Yak-1
12km E of Krasnaja Sloboda
Day's losses in the Stalingrad sector include 11 IAP's Vitaliy Vasilievich Serkov KIA. Same unit lost Serzhant Vasily Ivanovich Titov on IL-2 escort mission and definitely to fighters was Nikolay Aleksandrovich Shershilov baled out failed to return

30.11.42/0810 and 0812
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Pitomnik – Kotluban
622 ShAP, 214 ShAD, 8 VA definitely in action over Pitomnik in the morning losing 6 planes and 5 crews including Kapitan Dobrokhotov and Serzhant Pyatiletov. 5 more were seriously damaged

15.4.43/1629 and 1630
2 x LaGG-3s
Kuban bridgehead
At least 9 LaGG-3s lost this day. 4 from 267 IAP, 2 from 979 IAP, 2 from 926 IAP and 1 from 269 IAP more specific info is impossible due to large number of claims/losses

[MW Giles]

This is what I can find when you compare his claims against US missions.

30,1.45 General der flieger Obstlt B-17 raum Berlin Berlin area 1155
30,1.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-51 raum Berlin Berlin area 1200
8th AF did not do any operations on this date,nor did the 15th AF.
No MACRs match

31.1.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-51 raum Berlin Berlin area 1115
8th AF went to Brunswick, Bremen and Hallendorf
15th went to Moosebierbaum in Austria (300 miles away), smaller operations to Graz and Maribor
Only P-51 MACR is 11839 P-51D 44-13509 52FG Ralston Lake, Hungary

4,2.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-38 raum Berlin Berlin area 1400
8th AF 3 F-5s on recon, no losses
15th AF no operations took place
No MACRs match

4,3.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-51 raum Berlin Berlin area 935 150
8th AF went to Southern Germany
15th AF went to Hungary and Austria
RAF BC to Ruhr
No MACRs match

16,3.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-38 25km westlich Brandenburg 25km W Brandenburg 1025 1200
8th AF only minor operations
15th AF was in Austria and southern Germany (P-51s)
No MACRs match

27,3.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-47 westenrand Ammersee western bank of lake Ammer 1105 800
27,3.45 General der flieger Obstlt P-47 20km östlich München 20km E Munich 1100 100

8th AF only minor operations
15th AF no operations
Obviously more likely to be 9th AF or 1 TAF if it is a P-47
MACR 13673 P-47D 44-20593 367FG Redstock, Frankfurt
No MACRs match
III/EJG2 claimed six P-47s this day

29,3.45 General der flieger Obstlt B-17 raum Berlin Berlin area 1510 tiefflug
8th AF did no operations
15th AF did no operations
RAF BC to mid Germany
No MACRs for B-17s

20,4.45 General der flieger Obst P-51 raum München Munich area 1610 300
8th AF extensive operations
15th AF attacked Austria and Italy
MACR 14101 P-51D 44-72076 of the 354th FG lost Prague – wrong place

24,4.45 General der flieger Obst B-17 20km westlich München 20km W Munich 1030 1500
8th AF did no operations
15th AF were in Austria and Northern Italy
B-17 43-38685 lost on trip to Rheine – wrong place


26,4.45 General der flieger Obst P-51 25km südlich München 25km S Munich 1730 200
8th AF did no operations
15th AF were in Northern Italy
P-51 44-72967 of 354th FG lost dive bombing N of Raudnitz – wrong place and time

27,4.45 General der flieger Obst B-17 10km südöstlich München 10km SE Munich 1035 200
27,4.45 General der flieger Obst B-17 20km westlich Augsburg 20km W Augsburg 1240 300
8th AF did no operations
15th AF did no operations
No MACRs

28,4.45 General der flieger Obst P-51 10km südöstlich Salzburg 10km SE Salzburg 1230 5000
28,4.45 General der flieger Obst B-17 50km südöstlich Salzburg 50km SE Salzburg 1440 3500
8th AF did no operations
15th AF did no operations
No MACRs

30,4.45 General der flieger Obst B-17 20km nördlich München 20km N Munich 1630 6000 N 90 Me262
8th AF did no operations
15th AF did no operations
No MACRs

Sorry I do not have the knowledge to do the same for the Russians.

However as you can essentially dismiss 17 aircraft from his list, including 7 B-17s, why are we discussing whether he claimed his 99th or 100th on a particular date?


Having done this I firmly suspect that he was flying a mahogany fighter during this period


Martin

[Nick Beale]

Shows the value of losses vs claims research rather than just listing numbers alongside pilot's names without bothering to verify anything was actually shot down.

Exactly. Not to mention that trying to find out what actually happened is really interesting, too.

[Nick Hector]

Well I think Martin has shown that Dahl's later claims were pure fiction and we wouldn't have reached that conclusion without the insight into BOTH sides of the argument