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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#31
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello, Andrey.
Been a few days in the mountains skiing - will get back to our discussion later today. Regards, Andreas B
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Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! |
#32
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello Andreas,
Quote:
For comparison, Soviet analogue (but daily, not monthly) of “Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen”, in attachment: Attachment 10013 Explanation: Form No.4 Combat strength report of 216.SAD for 16.4.1943 (made late in 15.4.43) Columns: 1. Line number 2. Regiment 3. Dislocation (airfield) 4. Aircraft type 5. Serviceable planes on the airfield 6. Non-serviceable planes on the airfield 7. Has repaired [last 24 hours] 8. Has left 9. Has arrived 10. Losses 11. Sum of planes On hands: 12. Pilots 13. Observers 14. Air gunners 15. Engineers 16. Technicians, Mechanics 17. Junior specialists Combat-ready crews: 18. For daylight hours 19. Among them, for night also 20. Pilots outside the unit Below the table remarks were written. For example, for the famous 16.GIAP the following remarks: Popovicheskaya airfield: 1 Airacobra on forced landing off Novotitarovskaya [column 8] Krasnodar airfield: 8 Airacobras damaged in dogfights [column 6] Column 8: 2 Airacobras FTR (Major Kryukov, jr.Lt Naumenko) Column 20: 1 pilot in hospital The form No.4 has varied a bit from one unit to other, the filling was also different. In some units it contained the factory numbers, for example. Best regards, Andrey |
#33
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello, Andrey.
Very interesting data! Trying to decipher my way through - think I have got the bases for 16. GIAP right - Popo?icheskaia and Kracnodar written directly in latin letters. WHat is the fifth letter in the first name in cyrillic? Think I will be able to locate the second one at least :-) Interesting how Aerocobra and Kittyhawk is written - "Aerokobra" and "Kittikhauk" - guess they mimicked the pronounciation? More from my side later on Regards, Andreas B
__________________
Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! |
#34
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello Andreas,
5th letter is cyrillic 'в' Popovicheskaya (also PopovicheVskaya in some documents and maps) now is Kalininskaya (~50 km NNW Krasnodar) Quote:
Regards, Andrey |
#35
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Quote:
According to all other accounts 60% means the lower limit of the irrepairable damages. Also, let's return to "Er" mark after % of damages in GQM returns. If really only total losses and items with "Er" mark were included in columns "durch Feindeinwirkung" and "ohne Feindeinwirkung" in Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, the difference between losses in the sources in question is even higher than I wrote before. Surprisingly few Lfl.4 losses during Apr.-Jun.43 has the "Er" mark. By the way, a strange record on the page 10 on 22.5.43 (record 183): Lfl.2 30.4.43 7./JG77 Bf109G-6 wn 16569 70% (!) with "Er". Is it a typo? Best regards, Andrey Last edited by Andrey Kuznetsov; 20th May 2014 at 19:46. Reason: typo |
#36
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello friends and Andreas especially,
an addition to the untimely faded discussion. Quote:
Transport units in the Lfl.4 area (not included in Lfl.4 and listed in GQM returns among "Transportverbände (Einsatz Osten)") has used the remark 'Er' really. I has counted 8 entries in the timeframe in question - 6 from TGr10 and 2 from III./TG3. But in returns for Lfl.4 I has found 2 entries only - both from I./KG55 (ex-TGr10 mentioned above). Probably I./KG55 used the 'Er' remark by inertia as ex-transport unit. Hardly to believe that among hundreds of damaged aircrafts none required the repair outside the unit! It look like the 'Er' system hasn't worked in the Lfl.4 in the timeframe in question at least. Any ideas? Best regards, Andrey |
#37
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello, Andrey
I agree to your comment that this system has (probably not) worked in the area of the Luftflotte 4. There could have been specific orders for the units not to use this - as i have seen specific orders to units within Luftflotten to deviate from standard reporting practice (specifically Luftflottenkommando Süd-Ost which I believe was operating close to Luftflotte 4). Sorry for the short answer and for letting this quite important thread die - will try to bring it back to life from my part after my vacation! (Family, sand, sea and sun is the priority these days...) Regards, Andreas
__________________
Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! |
#38
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello Andreas,
Quote:
It isn't a urgent question, I'll wait the end of your vacation Best regards, Andrey |
#39
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello Andreas,
do you have something new about the topic? Best regards, Andrey |
#40
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data
Hello, Andrey.
As you might have seen the number of discussion I have commented on lately is rather low - I have been too busy in other areas of life to be able to allocate much time to hobbies. Will see if I can sniff out these specific orders over the next few days. Regards, Andreas B
__________________
Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube! |
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