He111 shot down 17 June 1940

[MarkRS]

Brian,

Yes, you can read the sentence either way, but if you take out the bracketed survivor, then the word "British" is a collective plural, so "he" applies to the German brandishing a Luger. Anyway, someone would take them prisoner or drown them. They could not let the Germans run around freely within sight of the British exodus.

I think it is probably fantasy.

Mark.

[Brian]

Hi Mark

Fantasy by the author? By the survivor? If so, why?

I found the following in my notes. It still doesn't prove anything but ....


Plt Off Neil Campbell of 242 Squadron wrote:

‘We covered the evacuation from Nantes and prevented it from becoming another Dunkirk. There were three squadrons at Nantes covering the troopships and with pardonable pride we kept Jerry off. One evening the wily devil sent over five Heinkels. They came over high and approached from different directions. One succeeded in diving through the clouds and bombed one of our ships but that couldn’t be helped. They glided down from a height and dived through the clouds. Unfortunately the first bomb got the ship. No.1 Squadron was on patrol at the time and succeeded in shooting down three of the Huns. One was chased, not shot, into the water. Boy, he must have been scared.’

Cheers
Brian

[MarkRS]

Brian,

OK, "fantasy" may have been the wrong word. "Over enthusiasm" may be more appropriate. Take the quotation that you produced: It was not evening, it was 3:50 pm. There were not 5 planes but at least 14. They were not Heinkels, they were Ju88s. They did not hit 1 ship, they hit at least 4 over a period of time. Lancastria was not hit with 1 bomb, it was hit with 4, and near missed by 2 more which did damage. And there is no record of 3 Huns being shot down. There are official claims for just 1 (by Berry and the Frenchman) and we know that this aircraft was just damaged. The Germans did not know which ships they hit or if they did any damage. They did not even know exactly which unit was attacking! Depending on which version you read it was KG30/I or II or III. The official German report states KG30/IV which did not exist!

I would be very happy if the story that 1 aircraft was driven into the water. It ties up with Goodman's family story that "he hit the heinkel which bombed the ship, only this time it landed and three of the crew were seen to get out". This could easily be explained by the Ju88 belly landing on the water and the crew climbing out on the wing brandishing a Luger.

At least now we have 2 independent versions of the same story, although one is hearsay. It will take a couple more before I start to get excited. As I said I have 3 books on the subject. I am trying to get hold of a copy of Geoffrey Bond's Lancastria (1959), but I cannot find a reasonably priced copy at the moment.

The Campbell quotation is a good find. Thanks. See if you can find some more.

Mark.

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

I think that it might be helpful to have the German-researched side of this story, albeit somewhat dated by more recent research. Below is the translation of the Heinrich Weiss account of the series of actions surrounding the sinking of the Lancastria. As you can see, this was a complicated action, involving significant over-claiming of results for the German attacks. This material, both the German original and the translation, is copyright IHRA, 2007 and 2010:

"Bomb missions

In the afternoon the German planes started to attack shipping targets situated off and in the Loire River Estuary. The attacks lasted until the evening. In total four waves formed by Ju 88 units of Air Corps IV were sent off against these targets.

The first wave took off at 11.25 hrs from Merville and consisted of bombers belonging to I./KG30. Following the mission, the last bomber returned at 17.30 hrs. The crews reported results from only one attack:
1. A transport ship, estimated at 1,200 BRT, received two SC250 hits and was probably sunk.

The second wave took off from Löwen-Le Culot Airfield around 14.30 hrs. It consisted of 14 Ju 88A-1 bombers belonging to II./KG30. The last landed later at 19.00 hrs. The following successes were reported:
1. Four SC250 bombs exploded close to a warship estimated at 5,000 tons. The warship was most likely damaged.
2. A troop transport ship estimated at 30,000 BRT and fully loaded with troops was attacked in the Loire River Estuary. According to the crewman the silhouette of this ship was similar to a battleship. One SC500 exploded in the middle of the ship and second on the rear part. The ship’s stern was blown up and later the ship, according to the eye-witnesses, capsized.
3. A transport ship estimated at 20,000 BRT was hit by one SC500 bomb. It was a direct hit in the middle of the ship. A second bomb detonated close to the ship`s hull. Smoke was observed erupting.
4. A merchant vessel of 1,000 BRT was hit in the middle with one SC500 bomb. A second bomb detonated close to the ship`s hull. Erupting smoke and fire was seen. The ship sat low in the water.
5. A transport ship of 12-15,000 BRT developed a list after receiving a direct hit from an SC500 in the bow. The lifeboats were lowered.
6. One SC500 bomb hit the forward part of a transport ship estimated at 12-15,000 BRT. A second SC500 bomb exploded some 5 meters off the ship`s bow. The ship began listing and fires were seen breaking out.
7. A steamship estimated at 10,000 BRT received four SC250 hits. One of the bombs exploded close to the ship`s hull. The ship was stopped and was on fire. [end of page 849]
8. A tanker ship of approx. 5,000 BRT received one SC250 hit in the middle. A second bomb exploded 10 meters off the starboard side of the ship. Smoke and fire was seen erupting after the attack and the ship developed a list.
9. Two SC250 bombs exploded close to a medium-seized merchant ship – estimated at about 5,000 BRT.

The third wave, consisting of some crews belonging to III./LG1, took off around 15.05 hrs from Lille-Vendeville. Only one crew reported a successful attack:
1. A transport ship estimated at about 10,000 BRT was attacked and damaged. It was listing.

The last wave was formed by II./LG1 and also took off from Lille-Vendeville at 15.10 hrs. The last plane returned at 19.36 hrs.
1. A transport ship of about 25,000 BRT was damaged.
2. A merchant vessel estimated at about 8,000 BRT was damaged by two SC500 near-misses

As usual the reports by the four Ju 88 units were too optimistic. However, undoubtedly the German bomber crews were able to sink a very big ship – the “Lancastria”.
“Lancastria” (1922; passenger steamship with 1 325 cabins; 16 243 BRT; 17 knots; 168/21,5/9,5 m; built in shipyard of W.Beardmore & Co, in Glasgow; Company: Cunard White Star Ltd.; home harbor: Liverpool) was hit by at least two SC500 bombs, whilst in the harbor of St.Nazaire. The bombs were dropped during a diving attack and most likely – according to survivors (note: according to the book of Don Minterne “The history of 73 Sqn” published by Tutor Publications, Dorchester 1994, almost 9000 people were on the board of “Lancastria”. According to an article in the Daily Mirror published on 26.7.40 a total 2,823 men were lost with the ship. Also Don Minterne believed in the “tale” saying that the ship had been sunk by a He 111 bomber, which was subsequently downed over the sea by a Hurricane fighter from 1 Sqn. A similar story can be found on page 149 in the book by Michael Shaw, “Twice Vertical”, published by Macdonalds & Co. in London in 197?. In fact all engaged German bomber units were equipped with the Ju 88 and suffered no complete losses)– had hit the front hold (load room) or stack. According to Don Minterne`s book (see the footnote) the ship was hit around 16.40 hrs (DSZ – German summer time) and sank after ca. 30 minutes at position 470848N/022018 East. In September the ship's superstructures were scrapped because the wreck was a considerable navigation hazard. Today the wreck is still there because it has been declared an official grave site.
How many people were aboard? The number 9,000 was certainly too high. We have some data from Lloyd:
306 members of ship's staff
5,200 Army and Royal Air Force’s soldiers
300 refugees

We know that:
a) Ship’s crew losses:
A total of 27 KIA; 59 MIA: 86 crewmen. Captain Sharp was rescued
b) RAF losses:
Unit KIA MIA Total
73 Sqn of Fighter Command 7 31 38
98 Sqn of AASF-BAFF 13 82 95
Other RAF units 7 62 69
Total: 202 [end of page 850]
At least 288 personal losses are known. Lloyd notes that 3000 soldiers and refugees were lost, not including among the ship’s staff. Subtracting the RAF losses from this number we get some 2,825 casualties amongst army soldiers and refugees.

The number of people killed is very high, taking into consideration that the ship sank some 20-30 minutes after the attack. Of course the detonating bombs slaughtered the people gathered on the deck and there wasn’t enough rescue equipment, but e.g. the leaking fuel did not catch fire. It`s not true that the German bombers returned to strafe the survivors or burned the floating oil patches with light (?) bombs. According to Captain Sharp there was also no panic on board the sinking ship. It was really puzzling to the British Admiralty that despite the presence of numerous other ships and boats so few people were rescued. E.g. the armed trawler “Cambridgeshire” picked up almost 1000 men and also the destroyer “Highlander” took part in the rescue action. Probably due to rolling attacks by German planes, nobody wanted to risk helping the survivors.
And where were the British fighters of the AASF? Three squadrons were based in Nantes-Chateau Bougon: 1 Sqn, 73 Sqn and elements of 242 Sqn. 1 Sqn was off for its last patrol sortie from French soil at the time when two groups from KG0 attacked. Three Hurricanes led by Sgt. George F. Berry encountered some enemy bombers and he chased a “He 111” aircraft, which had bombed the “Lancastria” ship. He saw a German bomber crash in the river Loire. According to “The history of 73 Sqn” 73 Sqn carried out three patrol sorties at 04.30 hrs, 10.30 hrs and 16.30 hrs. During the last sortie the pilots saw the “Lancastria” sinking It`s hard to believe this story because, according to the same book, the ship was hit around 15.40 hrs and sank within 30 minutes – that mean around 16.10 hrs. 242 Sqn made no claims.
Actually German losses were as follows:
3./KG30 Ju 88A-1 under 5% Damaged by fighter over the Loire River Estuary and safely returned to Merville.
Ofw. Ludwig Edmüller (observer) KIA in air combat
Obg. Herbert Kraus (wireless operator) WIA in air combat
Fw. Franz Erdel (gunner) WIA in air combat

5./KG30 Ju 88A-1 ca. 10% Damaged by fighter over Loire River Estuary and belly-landed at Louvain-Le Culot.

Further victims of four German waves were:
2. A British steamship “Teiresias” (freighter with passenger cabins; 7 405 BRT; 13 knots; Company: A.Holt & Co./Ocean SS Co.Ltd.; home harbor: Liverpool) came from Avonmouth as part of the evacuation flotilla. It was hit by bombs about one nautical mile off the wreck buoy, near the entrance canal to St.Nazaire, and sank on June 18th at position 4707N-0223W. One crewmen out of the 71-man crew was posted missing. [end of page 851]"

I hopes that this makes a positive contribution to this discussion.

Regards,

[MarkRS]

Very useful Larry, thanks.

It actually clarifies things if you read between the lines. First of all it clears up where the IV came from; Air Corps IV not IV./KG30. Secondly, it confirms that I./KG30 attacked the Oronsay. Most of the claims by II./KG30 seem to be for the same ship, the Lancastria. Claim 1 is the near miss on the Havelock that damaged her bow. Claims 2 through 9 are the Lancastria. Except for the extremely poor estimations of the ship's size, all the descriptions are similar: hits midships and rear or a near miss, fire and listing. The current thoughts are that the Lancastria was hit by 4 bombs and near missed causing damage by 2 more.

Again the Germans claim no losses. Considering that, at the time, they had no idea of the significance of the engagement, I am inclined to believe them. However, they also claim that they did not strafe the victims or drop flares and we know from numerous survivor accounts that they did just that. I think that George Berry's claim was automatically confirmed for morale purposes without a rigorous investigation. The German in the drink story is probably a myth.

Do you have anything on the He111 that was engaged between Nancy and Toul?

Mark

[Larry Hickey]

Mark,

At present, and somewhat varying from the Heinrich Weiss account, which seems to indicate that II./KG30 Ju88s did all or most of the damage to the Lancastria, here is what the EOE Data Base has for German losses relating to this event:

"June 17, 1940: 1./KG26 Heinkel He111P-2. Returned reportedly damaged by fighters between Toul and Nancy. BF Uffz Karl Magerkurth badly wounded - admitted to hospital in Frankfurt, rest of crew unhurt. Aircraft damage state not recorded.

3./KG30 Junkers Ju88A-1. Returned damaged by flak over the Loire estuary and also attacked by F/Sgt Berry of No. 1 Squadron during armed-reconnaissance and attack on shipping off St-Nazaire 3.45 p.m. Believed also engaged by PM Barbé of AC 5. BO Oberfw Lufwig Edmüller killed, BM Fw Franz Erdel and BF Obergefr Herbert Krauss both slightly wounded, FF Oberlt Siegmund-Ulrich Fr von Gravenreuth (Staffelkapitän 1./KG30) unhurt. Aircraft 10% damaged but repairable. Possibly the aircraft that attacked the Lancastria, von Gravenreuth’s logbook noting a direct hit on a 10,000 ton transport. But other aircraft of I./KG30 were operating and also attacked shipping in the estuary, as did Oberlt Suin de Boutemard of 4./LG1. Standing patrols of allied fighters may have provided some small sense of security to troops on the vessels below but were clearly unable to prevent such attacks - as British experience at Dunkirk should have proved."

The Heinrich Weiss account and the EOE Data Base are two separate sources underlying the research underway for the EOE book project (See Permanent Post on the Luft Board). Neither have necessarily been fully reconciled as we are still in the fact gathering stage of the project for this period. I also note that we haven't yet picked up the 10% damaged Ju88 from II./KG30 in our DB. More work clearly needs to be done here.

Regards,

[MarkRS]

Larry,

If you manage to reconcile everything it will be a miracle! They did not even know at the time what was going on.

Stahl of II./KG30 mentions a "JU88 from another Gruppe of KG30 shot down, belching smoke from its port engine". See "The Forgotten Tragedy" by Brian James Crabb. This is most likely von Gravenreuth’s aircraft, which, of course, survived. This would mean that von Gravenreuth probably is not the one who sank the Lancastria, but may have been the near miss which did damage.

It would be nice to know what the 1./KG26 Heinkel He111P-2 was doing when it was engaged.

Thanks for all the input.

Mark

[MarkRS]

Originally Posted by MarkRS

There are a number of reports of one Hurricane pilot dropping his Mae West to a survivor. It would be nice to find out which pilot that was.

FYI Fenby says that the pilot was Norman Hancock. http://www.bbm.org.uk/Hancocknpw.htm

Mark

[MarkRS]

Larry, please clear some space so that I can PM you.

Mark

[Larry Hickey]

Mark,

I've cleared some space on my PM box, so fire away.

Regards,

Larry