RLM colours please.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by robert

And your thesis is also not confirmed with any evidence.
It will be senseless to produce trop versions painted in standard colors.

Robert

The evidence is the German regulations of the period which required 74/75/76 colours. This has nothing to the colours, those aircraft were painted in the factory. Apart of that you seem to not to understand what trop version means.

Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio

Hello!

It seems you have no knowledge of the Finnish field depot system. No it could not have been done locally without any written notice surviving. It would at least surface in the weekly reports of work done at field depots etc. Not to speak about the accounting offices because paint would have not been delivered gratis. Co-operation between Finns and Germans was not so easy and informal as you seem to think.

Regards,
Kari

Kari, I do not mean there was no paperwork, I just only mean that this may have not survived to the present time. I cannot imagine MFAs discussing delivery of a few cans to German units. Another possibility is that the German units got extra deliveries of German produced paints for Finland. Then there will be no trace of those deliveries, I am afraid.

[Miguel]

Hi all,

I would like to add some facts to this fascinating discussion:
In this link: http://http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm you will find, in the "multimedia-videos" section, a film taken by Werner Pichon-Kalau von Hofe while Stab/JG54 was located at Trakehnen (East Prussia) in June 1941, before the start of SU's invasion.
It seems that the sported camouflage was maintained by the Stab planes Trautloft's included) for most part of 1941.
This film is discussed by Ken Merrick in the "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1935-1945" chapter seven.
Here are some lines of Merrick's text:
"...shows a camouflage of a brown and and a medium dark green..."
"Still photographs taken from the colour footage are flawed by the usual colour changes inherent in any colour process, especially one of that vintage; a colour shift is discernable to skin tones of the people..."
"Another influencing factor is is the highly reflecting surfaces produced by polishing of the entire airframe..."
"Allowing for the other factors mentioned, as well as checking the standard 02 colouring on internal sections in the engine bay area, it is possible that the colours 79 and 80 were used..."

I know that even colour photos can be tricky and, much more, stills taken from old non-professional films, but it is clear for me that, if the colours are not 79 and 80, then they are very similar to.
Of course, other opinions will be welcomed.
I have some stills taken from that film but, sorry, I am unable to include them in this post.

Regards, Saludos

[Pilot]

You have also video of the Fw190 in this colors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUwF2FRQmIU

[Grzegorz Cisek]

Gentelmen,

According to this von Hofe's film:
1. In June 1941 RLM 79 and 80 were in initial stage of using. In June 1941 first Bf 109E of I./JG 27 were repainted in Noth Africa in these colors, and probably it is even not proven that they at first used proper RLM 79 or any provisional paint.
2. In this film paint scheme is not similar to any known tropical factory scheme. At this time tropical scheme were not worked out and JG 54 aircraft were almost certainly field repainted. Using RLM 79 to that is ulikely.

As we see from our discussion we can agree that using RLM 79 on eastern front to repaint aircraft was unlikely to happen. In pictures of JG 54 Bf 109F and in one picture of FW 190A-5 (black 5, Max Stotz) I see brown color. It was not sand but evidently brown shade without any doubt. We can only speculate what was the source of this brown paint and all speculations are equally probable.

[Miguel]

Pilot,

It is the Fw 190 A-5/U3 WNr 0151227, White A of 4/JG54, shot down on 19th July of 1943.
There is somewhere in this forum a very complete report on this plane.

There are also two colour photos in Merrick's mentioned book (page 107) as an example of the use of colours 61 and 62, soon to be 81 and 82 (according to Merrick's theory, that I believe very sound).

I have seen in other reply to this subject an unknown to me photo of Adalbert Kuhn's Gelbe 9 (9/JG3) with Russian personnel around.
I guess if someone among the Russian members of this forum could try to find any report on the colours sported by the captured German planes.
I think that tis information could surely have been recorded.
This would be almost definitive, even thinking that in spite of the many British reports on downed planes during the Battle of Britain, the controversy on colours is still open...

This is just to say that, about the I and III/JG3 colours during the spring and early summer of 1942, my impression since long is that the real colours could be 78, 79 and, yes, 61 and 62. Sorry...
There are several Russian photos of these unit's captured planes so, perhaps there are some reports still to be unearthed.

About the JG54, I think that several colour photos have clearly shown that 61 and 62 (with probably 63) were common in 1942 and 1943.

Regards, saludos

[Evgeny Velichko]

So, I was not right about JG 3 colors. Sorry, I am not an expert

[robert]

[quote=Franek Grabowski;67954]The evidence is the German regulations of the period which required 74/75/76 colours. This has nothing to the colours, those aircraft were painted in the factory. Apart of that you seem to not to understand what trop version means.

Ah so trop versions were painted in 74/75/76 colors? I only know one trop version - for Africa.
Please show us some evidences that Sandgelb was not used by F-4TR planes enlisted into I/JG3, III/JG3 and JG5. Please don`t hide them.

Robert

[Miguel]

Evgeny,

You can be perfectly right.
My comment on JG3 colours is just an assumption (that I like very much), and I am not an expert either, just an enthusiast.

I have use it as an example of the many topics that we discuss on endlessly and that perhaps could be solved if Russian historians could have a look to the archived reports on captured German planes and see if there are some comments on paint and colours.

Regards, saludos

[Evgeny Velichko]

I've saw a book (as far as I remember - Russian book), about captured german aircrafts. With reports and photoes. But I didnt downloaded it.

And now dont remember WHERE I saw it.

May be here:

http://www.armourbook.com/
http://www.myallbooks.com/index.php?...1&startnum=606
http://www.megamagzone.com/2007/05/1...cts_books.html
=----
Admins: if posting a link to such webpage is wrong due to copyrights, pls edit my post and delete that link.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by robert

Ah so trop versions were painted in 74/75/76 colors?

Speaking strictly of 109s, yes, there were such aircraft.

I only know one trop version - for Africa.

You never cease to amaze me.

Please show us some evidences that Sandgelb was not used by F-4TR planes enlisted into I/JG3, III/JG3 and JG5. Please don`t hide them.

I suppose anyone can scan for you the respective Luftwaffe order on painting fighters in 74/75/76 colours. It is well known, for ages now.