Hans Hahn

[Nokose]

15 Sep 1940 II/JG 2 seems to have been involved in a dogfight with Spitfires possibly in the area of Portsmouth as Hahn's claim gives the only clue with Thorney Island. here is the claims for them.
Fw. Eberhard Bauer 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:15 no location
Uffz. Karl Hannes 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:20 no location
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 15:35 Thorney Island

No RAF losses along the southern coast this day and there are plenty of other German units filing claims some with no times and no locations during this time period but all the actual losses seem to be around London and the Thames Estuary. So no actual matching claim for Hahn.

[Andrew Arthy]

Originally Posted by Nokose

15 Sep 1940 II/JG 2 seems to have been involved in a dogfight with Spitfires possibly in the area of Portsmouth as Hahn's claim gives the only clue with Thorney Island. here is the claims for them.
Fw. Eberhard Bauer 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:15 no location
Uffz. Karl Hannes 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:20 no location
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 15:35 Thorney Island

No RAF losses along the southern coast this day and there are plenty of other German units filing claims some with no times and no locations during this time period but all the actual losses seem to be around London and the Thames Estuary. So no actual matching claim for Hahn.

Hi,

II./J.G. 2 was flying from Mardyck escorting bombers to east London between 14:35 and 16:15, and was not in the Portsmouth area (source: Hannes Flugbuch).

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

[Nokose]

20 sep 1940 12:00-12:40 (11:00-11:40 British)
On checking the RAF losses it was possible to separate the two Spitfires of the 92 Sqn because they were lost in the Dungeness area which had Werner Mödlers claiming two and III/JG 53 claiming two Spitfires during that time. So that left the following other RAF losses during the time of Hahn.
222 Sqn Spitfire 11:15 Rochester
222 Sqn Spitfire 11:35 Thames Estuary
222 Sqn Spitfire unk time and location crash-landed damaged by Bf 109
253 Sqn Hurricane 11:30 Kent

German Claims:
Oblt. Johann Schmid 1/JG 2 Spitfire 12:10 south of London
Hptm. Karl-Heinz Greisert Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 12:10 south of London
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 12:15 no location
Fw. Alfred Heckmann 5/JG 3 Spitfire 12:20 south of London
Maj. Adolf Galland Stab/JG 26 Spitfire 12:05 south of Hornchurch
Hptm. Johannes Seifer 3/JG 26 Hurricane 12:25 Themsemündung
Hurricane 12:37 Maidstone
Obfw. Heinrich Gottlob 6/JG 26 Hurricane 12:15 London
Gefr. Viktor Gruber 8/JG 27 Hurricane 12:20 souteast of London.

Looking at the location of the 222 Sqn Hurricane at 11:25 at the Thames Estuary it would appear to be Hptm Seifer even though he lists a Hurricane. That would leave the other three among the rest of the claims. Very bad odds that Hahn's claim could be an actual reality but possibly be an overclaim, shared or escaped.

[Nokose]

Thank you Andrew. I checked again and found that Thorn Island on the Thames River is also called Thorney Island which I believe is near the Royal Palace. Still that doesn't provide help with any better odds in his claim as for the RAF only the following appear.
1 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 damaged in air battle with He 111
92 Sqn Spitfire 14:50 west of Ashford
249 Sqn Hurricane 14:35 West Malling in air battle with He 111
302 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 North Weald doesn't give if fighter or bomber in shoot down
303 Sqn Hurricane ? hrs over Dartford with Bf 109
310 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 over the Thames
310 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 over the Thames
504 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 near Dartford

So here is the German claims outside of the above listed II/JG 2 claims.
Oblt Jerbert Ihlefeld 2(J)/LG 2 Spitfire 15:30 London
(I(J)/LG 2 made three more claims for Spitfires during the day with no names, times & locations)
(Also Stab and I/JG 3 made three Hurricane and two Spitire claims London with no times)
Oblt. Heinrich Sannrmann Stab II/JG 3 Sptfire 15:40 London
Maj. Adolf Galland Stab/JG 26 Hurricane 15:30 Themsemündung
Oblt. Walter Horten Stab/JG 26 Hurricane 15:30 "
Oblt Fritz Losigkeit 2/JG 26 Spitfire 15:40 southeast London
Obfw Walter Meyer 5/JG 26 Spitfire 15:35 London
(6/JG 27 had one unconfirmed Spitfire SE of London with no time, Stab/JG 51 had a Spitfire with no time and location and I/JG 51 had three Sitfires with no times and location)
Lt. Fritz Stendel 8/JG 51 Hurricane 15:28 no location
Spitfire 15:36 "
Fw Gustav Küll 8/JG 51 Hurricane 15:35 no location
Uffz Karl Willius 8/JG 51 Spitfire 15:36 no location
(III/JG 51 had two Spitfires with no times and location. Also a Hurricane with the location of Tonbridge)
Oblt Franz Hahn 2/JG 77 Spitfire 15:35 no location
Oblt Hans-Karl Keitel 1/JG 77 Spitfire 15:40 "
Oblt Karl-Heinz Leesmann 2/JG 52 Hurricane 15:25 Themsemündung
Hurricane 15:40 "
Oblt Helmut Bennemann 2/JG 52 Hurricane 15:30 southern London
Hurricane 15:30 Themsemündung
Hurricane 15:40 "
Oblt. Günther Büsgen 1/JG 52 Hurricane 15:32 no location
Oskar Strack 1/JG 52 Hurricane 15:35 no location
Oblt Robert Göbel 2/JG 52 Hurricane 15:35 Themsemündung
Uffz Heinrich Kooerschläger 1/JG 53 Spitfire 15:50 NW London
Fw Walter Scholz 3/JG 53 Spitfire 15:50 10 km south of London
Oblt Ignaz Prestele 2/JG 53 Spitfire 15:55 10 km " "
Lt Wolfgang Tonne 3/JG 53 Spitfire 15:55 "
Uffz Heinrich Rühl 1/JG 53 Spitfire 15:58 south London
Oblt Jakob Stoll 9/JG 63 Spitfire 15:33 no location
Lt Erich Schmidt 9/JG 53 Spitfire 15:36 " "
Oblt Franz Götz 9/JG 53 Hurricane 15:40 " "
Gefr Hans Swietlik 13(Z)/LG 1 Spitfire 15:10 " "
Obfw Heinz Langenberg 5/ZG 76 Spitfire 15:25
Lt. Werner Pistor Stab II/ZG 76 Spitfire 15:45 10 km SE London

Okay with the all these claims and only six Hurricanes and one Spitfire lost (also the damaged Hurricane) the Spitfire of Hahn's is very unlikely. So the 15 Sep 1940 was not a good day.

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Nokose

Thank you Andrew. I checked again and found that Thorn Island on the Thames River is also called Thorney Island which I believe is near the Royal Palace. Still that doesn't provide help with any better odds in his claim as for the RAF only the following appear.

Hi Nokose, just for clarification, there are two Thorney Islands. Check out Wikipedia's disambiguation page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorney_Island

The other Thorney Island had a RAF Coastal command base which is a fact that might cause a confusion here.

Nick

[Nokose]

Thanks for the link Nick but it seems none of the RAF losses came down in his area.

23 Sep 1940 10:00-1050 (09:00-09:50 British)
Hptm. Karl-Heinz Greisert Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 10:30 no location
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 10:30 London

I(J)/LG 2 claimed five Spitfire at Dover during this time period
Adolf Galland Stab II/JG 26 claimed two Hurricanes at 10:45 north of Rochester

RAF losses;
257 Sqn Hurricane I (P2960) Sgt D.J. Aslin (WIA) over the Thames Estuary at 09:50.

The last two "Matching" German claims for this time period and location.
Gefr. Helmut Hornatscheck 9/JG 26 Spitfire 10:45 Themsemündung
Lt. Gustav Sprick 8/JG 26 Spitfire 10:35 Themsemündung
These two could have shared but given the time it is more then likely Hornatscheck for his 1st victory.

To be fair it would probably take some one sitting down and reading all the after action combat reports (RAF since they survived) to determined who was involved along with how much damage was done. RAF claims during this period I've read didn't always match German losses. Still no post-war confirmation for Hahn's claim for this day.

[Nokose]

On going through Norman L R Franks book for this day there is some strange times for the loss of RAF fighters which don't match any of the times for the claims made by German pilots. German Summer time did not end for 1940 until Nov 1942 on the change back. Is there missing claims from Tony Woods list for this daylisted in Prien's JFV series?

Hptm Karl-Heinz Greisert Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 13:35 Southampton
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 13:35 Southhampton
Obfw. Siegfried Schnell 4/JG 2 Spitfire 13:39 Southampton
Spitfire 13:42 Southampton

Nick, you listed for this day 609 Sqn Spitfires of F/O John C Dundas and P/O Noel Le Chevalier Agazarian as being damaged so that is the closes possible for Hahn's. Unless someone else has better information. So no actual victory this day.

[Nokose]

For the 6 Nov 1940 Frank's book lists only the following RAF losses which he gives no times but for the most part gives the credit to Maj Helmut Wick Stab/JG2 for some reason.
145 Sqn Hurricane I P/O JK Haire (KIA) time PM, over Isle of Wight (to Wick)
145 Sqn Hurricane I Sgt J Weber, same as above
213 Sqn Hurricane I Sgt HH Adair (KIA) time PM over Portsmouth (to Wick)
238 Sqn Hurricane I P/O J Tillett (KIA) time PM, over Fareham (he stated only JG 2)

Oblt. Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Hurricane 15:50 east of Southhampton

So any comments with more information would be interesting on this one as Wick claimed five fighters, Oblt. Erich Leie Stab/JG 2 two Hurricanes (at Southampton at 15:35 & 15:37) and Obfw. Siegfried Schnell of 4/JG 2 claimed a Hurricane 1340 to the east of Southampton.

[Nokose]

24 June 1941 (Circus 21)
Hptm. Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 21:00 NW Calais

RAF losses:
603 Sqn Spitfire
603 Sqn Spitfire damaged and forced landed at Walmer
611 Sqn Spitfire

German claims during this raid were three Spitfires by JG 26 and ten Spitfires by JG 2 (including Hahn). So a very unlikely victory with all this overclaiming.

[Nokose]

25 Jun 1941 (Circus 23)
I have very little on Circus 23 but on this one the chances of Hahn's actually scoring a victory are a lot better.
German Claims:
Oblt. Erich Leie Stab 2/JG 2 Spitfire 16:30 NE Boulogne (No witness)
Hptm Wilhelm Balthasar Stab/JG 2 Spitfire 16:45 no location
Lt Siegfried Schnell 4/JG 2 Spitfire 16:32 no location
Spitfire 16:40 no location
Lt. Günther Behrendt 4/JG 2 Spitfire 16:35 no location
Hptm Hans Hahn Stab III/JG 2 Spitfire 16:31 Marquise
Lt. Egon Mayer 7/JG 2 Spitfire 16:35
Lt. Walter Höhler 7/JG 2 Spitfire 16:35
Obfw Rudolf Krull 7/JG 2 Spitfire 16:40
Lt Johannes Schmidt 3/JG 26 Spitfire 16:45 10 km north of Dünkirchen
Oblt Walter Schneider 6/JG 26 Spitfire 16:40 south of "

RAF losses:
54 Sqn Spitfire (three)
303 Sqn Spitfire
610 Sqn Spitfire and Sgt Davies Spitfire damaged and he was WIA.
616 Sqn Spitfire (two over St. Omar)