Mustangs lost over Hungary on 14 October 1944

[researcher111]

No, read again my last post , the 325th pilot never reached near
Romanian border 400 Km away , nor Shadrin flew near Budapest
or even half way to Budapest on that day because his unit was
active within the airfield perimeter, no matter how you turn it
neither I put Nis into any context.

Please don't tell me he put the P-51 on autopilot for such distance
or experienced loss of consciousness after the event described on
the MACR for more than 400 Km's to just be shot down by Shadrin
about 40 minutes to an hour later.

Sorry I don't buy such arguments .

PS : I am out of this topic unless there will be
real relevant arguments

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
OK, so I offer the following.
I do not know what difference the date/time frame in the area may have been.
But four P51's were lost on the 13th.
three pow's and one kia.
The KIA was -
332ndFG - 43-24905 - 1Lt. Walter D. Westmoreland (MACR 9087 ).
Witness Capt. Melvin T. Jackson.
Last known position - 47deg 13min North by 17deg 27min East.
Place-names on map = Papa, Celldomolk and Veszprem.
Detail of statement They had just finished strafing an airdrome, Westmorelands a/c was lagging in formation then began a steep dive. White smoke from plane. It looked like it was going to make a forced landing but at about 10 feet from the ground hit a tree, flipped over onto its back, skidded for about 100 yards. It lay on its back with one wing broken off.

The next Loss was I believe on the 21st.
Alex

[Fred Wilson]

15th Air Force, 325th Fighter Group, 318th Fighter Squadron North American, P-51, C-7 42-103562 was lost over Hungary 1944-12-1
See: http://www.lostaircraft.com/database...wentry&e=25542

Very little other info there.
- If someone could please edit the LostAircraft Loss Record, that would be appreciated.

[NUPPOL]

Lt Westmoreland mmeorial
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...346317&df=all&

[NUPPOL]

Related link
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...959#post200959

[Alex Smart]

To round out, Bell evader - returned to his unit in December 44.
Thanks to help from the partisans and Royal Navy.
Namely HMS Colombo and HMS Brocklesby (22nd Nov 44 for Ancona, Italy).

Details from Escape & Evasion report dated ( IIRC) 24th Nov 44.

"On 14th Oct 44 landed approximately 15/20 miles N E of Zagreb (45deg 52min N)(16deg 01min E).
After landing walked in a southerly direction till nightfall and slept in woods.
On 15th Oct 44 met friendly Yugoslav farmer who called the Partisians.They took Bell to Cetingrad, spent night at Partisian HQ.
The following morning taken by motor vehicle to Topusko.
On 17th Oct 44 hitch-hiked to a British Mission.
On 18th Oct due to overcrowding he was again moved to a Yugoslav family on the outskirts of the town.
Where he stayed untill
19th Nov 44 when along with many others including British, French and US "troops" was taken by truck to small American Mission where they slept. Planes were supposed to pick them up but bad weather put a stop to that.
Again Bell was moved by truck on the
20th Nov 44 to Obrovac 44 where Dalmatian's gave food and sleeping space.
On 21st Nov 44 left Obrovac for Zara. Ustaches had taken over the road so driver refused to return to Obrovac. Spent night on HMS Colombo.
22nd Nov 44 boarded HMS Brocklesby and sailed for Ancona, Italy".

Alex

[researcher111]

I think it's a steep further, but what is the E & E report
but relevantly which partisans those of Tito or those
of Mihailovic ? based on which I may plot an aproximate
bail out coordinate.

[Boris Ciglic]

Thanks to Alex it is obvious that loss of 332.FG Mustang has nothing to do with Shadrin's claim and that it occurred as described in the MACR. Mihailović's men were Chetniks and not Partisans and I haven't seen that they were ever named Partisans, in any E&E report. Distance from where Bell bailed out to Bela Crkva is some 460 kilometers east-southeast.

[Alex Smart]

So we are back to post five where Boris had -
"Gennadiy Shadrin of 117.GvIAP near Bela Crkva, east of Belgrade, Yugoslavia, on 14 October. Whilst returning from a patrol, he was vectored towards an unknown plane flying at altitude of 3.000 meters. He quickly caught up with it and recognized a Mustang with USAAF markings. The Soviet ground control suspected that the aircraft was recconoitering their positions and instructed him to force it to land. Despite some hand signs, wing waving and warning shots, American pilot did not respond and tried to flee in southern direction. It was then that commander of 10.GvShAD gen.maj. Andrej Vitruk ordered Shadrin to shot him down, which he did. American pilot bailed out, but his parachute failed to open and he fell near Bela Crkva ".

Followed by - " In order to hush up the incident, a Bf 109 was claimed instead and all involved ordered to keep quiet ".

The date given seems to be certain - 14th October 1944 - So it can only be perhaps a miss identification of an aircraft by the "victor" or perhaps the date is incorrect ?

From all input in this thread it looks very much like it could not be any of the P-51's lost on the date given, One pilot(Bell) evaded, one pilot( Leary ) was POW while the two killed( Mann and Houghton ) are dismissed.
In post seven we are offered - "while debfriefed by Intel in Bari he gave out questionable grounds as into the event ".
I have read it and see nothing questionable within it ?
Perhaps this can be expanded by the inclusion of the debrief into this thread ?

I offered the earlier date of 13th but that fatality ( Westmoreland ) was also excluded.

This leads me to the conclusion that this was either a friendly fire event or the pilot exaggerated his claims this is not unknown and has been done by others either through deliberate act or excitement of the moment.

Then there is the chance that the "facts" as known do not fit the "story" being told. This has come up in other threads from time to time as well.

Whatever the case it would be good to solve just who this killed P-51 pilot was.

Maybe we should go back to the start and search out those Bf109 losses and even Russian Lag and Yak losses for the date given in the area, even local aircraft under training if any ?
As the ID was for a "P-51 who's pilot baled out, chute failed, pilot killed " - we can be sure it is a single engined, single crewed aircraft - yes ?

All the very best
Alex

[Boris Ciglic]

We gave our best but it seems we won't be able to solve this one out with 100% certainty

The date 14 October 1944 can be found in the excellent book of Mikhail Bykov about Soviet aces and seeing the sources he used on the end of the book, I have no doubt that the date is the right one.

I still think that Houghton could be the only possible candidate. He is still missing and we don't know where he crashed. Mann is buried in France. If he was found in Yugoslavia, he would have been probably buried in Belgrade War Cemetry. However, he could have been buried in Budapest War Cemetry as well?! It would be very helpful if we would see the data about his recovery and burial post war.

It is possible that Shadrin overestimated the success of his attack, but still, the whole event occurred very close to Soviet base, so it wouldn't have been hard to find the wreckage and confirm the claim, and its nationality.

There was only one Bf 109 unit operating in the area, namely 3./NAGr.2 and it did lose an Bf109G-8 to enemy action during October 1944, but when and where I don't know. An "recce Bf 109G-6" was reputedly forced to land at Gabrovnica airfield in Bulgaria by 31.IAP on 3 October (according to memoirs of Mikhail Tsykin) or 10 October (according to memoirs of Nikolai Skoromochov) and the pilot who forced it down was Tsykin. interestingly enough, Bykov does not list this claim in his book, in Tsykin biography.

Cheers,
Boris