Photos 2-12

[panzerscheibe]

Hi John and Günther,

I'm far away to read all the dicussion on this board, but I often read the interessting longer ones. This discussion too! I'm agree with you, censorship in this way are not okay. If someone (like the moderator) selectiv delet posts, the whole discussion makes no sense and give a totaly wrong "picture" (on this board like on other boards). I don't like this way, sorry! A discussionboard is a discussionboard and not a statementboard.

Panzerscheibe

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by kormoran

Hi Nick,

But we don't know if there is a truth behind the statements which were posted here.

Then we'd be in a lot better position to judge the truth if people offered some evidence for their claims, wouldn't we?

Everybody has the chance to clear such reproaches or to say
something against.

But why should anyone have to defend themselves against insults and accusations unsupported by any evidence. Is writing books a crime all of a sudden?

I like the publishing work of Mr. Prien very much but we all read
some strange states on this board in the past. I think that's a fact
that we can find photos of sudeks archive in the JFV series ... So it's possible that some people made agreements with sudek himself. And if this is true I think that it's immoral - or let me better say - very questionable.

I'd rather that historical material was in public archives but you have to face it that these photos are in private hands: the owners are entitled to sell them and Sudek is entitled to buy them. This being capitalism and him reputedly having more money than we do, he/she gets to buy them in an auction.

What has he actually done wrong? If he broke the law, tell the police. If he's breaking the auction rules, tell ebay. If you don't like capitalism, this forum probably isn't the best place to fight it either.

No one has offered any evidence of Jochen Prien actually doing anything wrong. If he or any other author makes an effort to obtain the best possible photos for a book, what is actually wrong with that provided they are obtained honestly? Also, huge numbers of photos feature in more than one personal collection or public archive.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by kormoran

Hi Nick,

There a member of sudeks team told who is allowed to use the archive and who is not. So it's possible that some people made agreements with sudek himself. And if this is true I think that it's immoral - or let me better say - very questionable.

Regards,
Günter.

Günter,
I have to say that you do not see the 'global' picture concerning research and the attempts of researchers to get their work into print. Ever before the advent of the internet, researchers were networking with each other, exchanging views, information, contacts and photographs. That is undisputed fact, and I can give you a long list of pre-internet contacts if you so wish.

I also know that in pre-internet times, certain researchers were not prepared to work with other researchers (no names, no pack drill on this one!). That is fact. That is also life, because not everyone gets on well.

Now if sudek wants to allow certain researchers/authors to make use of some of the information/photos in his collection, that's his prerogative, and ultimately, readers of certain books will reap the benefit of seeing good stuff in print. Is there really anything wrong with that? No there isn't. Is it immoral, or very questionable? No it isn't. You need to get the whole thing in proper perspective.

And I'll answer the inevitable question that is likely to surface. Go look at my two books on the Messerschmitt 110 in the Classic series and you will see photos in them from sudek. I make no apologies for stating that. sudek has provided assistance in getting photos into published works, and that should be applauded. I know of certain people (as do others) whose attitude over the years has been to gather stuff in and then never to let a soul near their collection/archive - that again is their prerogative (but they would still approach you and try to snaffle stuff from yours).

What I have written above is all fact. It is the truth. Some people may not like it, but that's the way it is.

[SMF144]

Hi John,

How true indeed. Like anything else in life, it all depends on the individual and what he/she would like to do with "their" stuff. I, myself, have been hoarding good primary wartime private snaps because I have plans to do something with this stuff that I have worked very hard to obtain. Whether that happens or not is a good question. Father time will be the judge of that but my intentions are good. I have also been known to be generous and share my stuff the odd time with researchers and noted authors. That being said, I've come to dislike the vacum cleaners out there that suck all this stuff up and never share it. Obviously that's their choice, but the learning curve for the rest of us will be that much longer. Just like noted authorities not being able to share information etc between themselves, "we" are the ones that suffer, not them.

I've learned from the best but a good friend of mine taught me a valuable lesson and that is life is way too short to be playing these games. So, if Sudek want's to pick and choose who he gives his blessing to, well, then that's they way it goes but there's one thing to bare in mind, you can't take this stuff with you to the other side.

Stephen

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by SMF144

... you can't take this stuff with you to the other side.

Stephen

The Egyptian Pharaohs might not have agreed with you about that!

[SMF144]

Nick,

Have you ever met one that said otherwise?

Stephen

[panzerscheibe]

Hi John Vasco,

sounds good what you are telling us enthusiast. Looks like a few guys of you researchers / photo collectors standing on the right side and a few on the wrong :-). That's the world, money are all and moral nothing, - lucky to have not the money for bidding. But don't forget, wind could quickly change the direction and may be you stay one day on the "wrong" side.

Have fun
Panzerscheibe

[kormoran]

Hi John,

thank you for your informations it's good to here the state of a man
who is working together with sudek. I'm sorry, I don't know your books,
I've never heard about your work before. Maybe I missed something
until know, please excuse me.
I can't believe that a man who is spending millions of EUR/USD for
a great photo collection is supporting some authors and publishers
for free. Why should he do it? Just for fun or as a hobby?
OK, maybe I'm wrong and we should be happy that such collectors
share their gathered photos with us. I have not enough cash to buy
every interesting book so I have to look for new and former unpublished
material in few books or magazines I can get.

Günter.

[wrackplatz]

John is an author who's special interest is for example in Bf 110 and
Zerstörerverbände. He is one of the people "standing on the right side"
and before sudek started bidding at ebay he was one of the enthusiasts
who bid hard to get photos for their publishing work. Now he need not
bid any more because he has access to sudeks archive.
OK, I won't tell more because I don't want that my post will be
deleted again.

[Ruy Horta]

The two original wrackplatz were soft deleted by me.

Any personal attack, which the moderator team thinks goes too far, will be deleted. This is a policy of the TOCH! forum and has been stated many times in the past, hence should not come as a surprise.

What constitutes going too far? That's a subjective matter, but once decided upon we are unanimous in the action.

The issue may be valid, it may even be matter for a discussion on this forum, but the way it is conducted is essential. It was my call that in this case Wrackplatz had crossed the (MY) boundary. Let me state that the soft deletion of two posts was the only action taken.

Call it what you want, censorship even, but TOCH! is a moderated forum. Sometimes everyone will agree with our actions as moderator (and even host), but on occasion some or many will disagree. Bottom-line is that we need to moderate to keep the general atmosphere positive and constructive.

The main gripe against TOCH! in the past was it's laissez faire policy. Now, from time to time, we have to face the accusation of censorship, which proofs you can't please everyone all the time.

Do I like deleting posts, no. It does leave ugly gaps and most of the time hurt feelings. However that can't be helped. Locking or deleting a thread leaves all parties offended or hurt.

There is little leeway for the moderator to act.

In this particular case there was a moderator action and (even) a moderating error. One can be turned back, the other cannot, but both must be accepted as fact. The combination of events make this more of an exeption than a rule.

(Edit) Note that RLM-76 was not censored, but choose to (soft)delete his own post. His action may have been triggered by the ongoing discussion, but as far as I know wasn't forced by any moderator.

I suggest we keep our focus and discuss the content of these images.

HOWEVER I agree that TOCH! is a forum with a wide scope for DISCUSSION. As long as that discussion is focused, constructive and free of personal attack. If you wish to discuss eBay, as related to our interest of WW2 aviation, feel free to do so within these boundaries. You will be surprised how far you can go as long as you remain civil and use your common sense.