Clostermann shot down?

[CJE]

No, kaki, the latest version "Le Grand Cirque 2000" is NOT an unabridged version. It's another fully rewritten version. Most of the dates do not appear any longer in the text.

Please, note that I don't intend to reopen the debate, which, AFAIC, is a closed case.

[Franek Grabowski]

Chris, we are indeed walking on a very soft ground here. What bothers me in the first place is that whatever is written by Clostermann, it is at the start considered untrue. But what if Clostermann just only confused name and date in his memoirs, does it mean the story is bogus?
It reminds me the story of the yellow Fw 190. Everyone laughed off this story, but nobody bothered to notice that yellow German aircraft had been reported occasionally. It does not mean they were yellow, it does mean they were seen yellow.
I believe hard conclusions are drawn just too easily here. Again, please do not consider it any personal attack, as my comments were not particularly aimed at you. I just want all the researchers here to reconsider use of such words like most likely, most probably, I believe, documents I have found show, etc.

[CJE]

No offense and I don't take it personal.
Don't worry, Franek.

[Franek Grabowski]

Glad to hear that! By the way, do you know if it is possible to obtain a copy of Clostermann's log book from the museum (I believe theyr at at Dome des Invalides)?

[Many Souffan]

Hello Franek

Firstly the "Grand Charles" is a go between a remember about the "Vieux Charles" of Guynemer because P. Clostermann has read when he was young his biography by H. de Bordeaux (When I met him some years ago he show me proudly the portrait of Guynemer) and it is also to the général de Gaulle as has said CJE.

About the log book (the 2 + civilian+ CdeV for Algeria) in the museum of the l'ordre de la Libération, it is not possible to see them till february 2006, it is a demand from the family...

...But I can say it will have a great surprise in 2008, unfortunatly, I can't say more...

The 6th july the new promotion of the école de l'Air of Salon de Provence will have as godfather Pierre Clostermann...

[Franek Grabowski]

Many, I hate you for that teaser!
I suppose it has nothing to de Gaulle, as I do not think anything ground breaking will be published in France.

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Chris, we are indeed walking on a very soft ground here. What bothers me in the first place is that whatever is written by Clostermann, it is at the start considered untrue. But what if Clostermann just only confused name and date in his memoirs, does it mean the story is bogus?
It reminds me the story of the yellow Fw 190. Everyone laughed off this story, but nobody bothered to notice that yellow German aircraft had been reported occasionally. It does not mean they were yellow, it does mean they were seen yellow.
I believe hard conclusions are drawn just too easily here. Again, please do not consider it any personal attack, as my comments were not particularly aimed at you. I just want all the researchers here to reconsider use of such words like most likely, most probably, I believe, documents I have found show, etc.

HI.franek.how do you now the full facts.its true a D( did shoot down 3 planes tempests.in a book i read.
GARY

[John Hilly]

I just happened to read Clostermann's books (all three trenslated in Finnish ). Mistakes in the contex, but... memories.
I woud like to learn more of Rudi Wulff, specially his final destiny.

Greets
Johnny B. Goode

[John Hilly]

This might be repeating, I'm a newcomer so I don't know how handle this f... machine. Still, I coud argue about Clostermann - in honest.
Who was Rudi Wurff, 40 victories in 8 months?
Please be patient!
Johnny B. Goode

[Mermet]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

But what if Clostermann just only confused name and date in his memoirs, does it mean the story is bogus?

Hi all,

In the preface of "The Big Show" one can read : "I wanted them (Note : Clostermann's father and mother) to live it (Note : his life in the RAF) with me, day by day, even if I did not come back to describe it myself.
So every evening I used to write down for them the events of the day in a fat Air Ministry notebook stamped 'G.R.'."

We can also read what follows :

"I ask the reader not to expect a work of literature. I simply jotted down day by day the impression, the fleetingly-caught incidents so sharply imprinted on my memory. It would require a remarkable talent to reproduce with truth and at the same time with literary grace the life of a fighter pilot in the last war. It is precisely because they are true, because they were written in the flush of action, that I have made no attempt to retouch these notes."

That means clearly that "The Big Show" was written during the war at a time when confusion of dates was not possible...

JCM