Friendly fire WWII

[Darius]

Hello friends,

01.05.1940: 803 sqdn Skua (from carrier HMS Glorious) shot down by AA from own ships in error off Namsos, GW Sub Lt Brokensha and PO SE Andrews rescued by destroyer HMS Nubian.

Can you give more infromation about this loss? Time, position, which ship shot them down?

Thank you

Darius

[B.F.M. Droog]

Hello Darius,

'[Royal] Ark launched the four "borrowed" 803 squadron Skua's in two sections of two (Lt. W. P. Lucy, RN and S-Lt. G. W. Brokensha, RN), while Glorious contributed all that remained of 803 on board, one section of three (Lt. J. M. Christian, RN) The patrols spotted nothing significant over Namsos, but after returning home near nightfall, the trigger happy Fleet gunners decided the returnees were more attackers, and aptly put the finishing touches on the day when they knocked down Brokensha. Fortunately he was able to make a good water landing and the crew was soon on board HMS Nubian. no worse for their effort, but not speaking too highly of the Fleet's aerial recognition ability!'
Source: Remember WW2, 1 May 1940

I make of this that it happened in the evening and that the gunners were gunners from the Ark Royal and/or the Glorious.

Regards,

Bart

[Amrit1]

Apologies if this has already been posted:

Flying Desert Rat: The Combat Career of Squadron Leader Bert Houle

Page 3 (of 9)

Houle's first taste of action happened on 30 October (1941) and was in fact a friendly fire incident. 213 was attached to 272 Squadron, a Beaufighter unit tasked with the defence of Alexandria. Several 213 pilots including Houle decided to hitch a ride during a training exercise with the Beaufighters making some practice runs on the Allied shipping about 30 miles off the coast. Despite being forewarned and having other 272 Squadron members on the ships the navy gunners opened up on the Beaufighters, bringing one down. Houle and the others made it back to base a sad and unforgiving group; the waste of life caused by his own side was a difficult baptism of fire.

http://www.wlu.ca/lcmsds/cmh/back%20...rt%20Houle.pdf

Brian,

I am not sure if your are interested in Navy freindly fires, but I found this on the <combindedfleet.com> web site.

24 October 1944:
The convoy is attacked by two American wolf packs. The submarines’ attacks scatter the convoy. Each Maru is attacked repeatedly, from both sides. During the wolfpacks’ attacks on the convoy, LtCdr George H. Brown’s SNOOK (SS-279) sinks the ARISAN MARU. Sadly, she is carrying 1,781 American PoWs who are lost along with 204 members of the ships’ crew and 125 other Japanese passengers. Only nine PoWs survive

The above informtion was found in the section on Seaplane Tender ships. Thre are many such listing on the web site of US submarines sinking Japanes shpping carrying Allied POWs.

Dear Brian,

Same web site as above:

12 September 1944:
S China Sea. E of Hainan, China. The HIRADO is torpedoed by Cdr Thomas B. Oakey’s USS GROWLER (SS-215) and sinks at 17-54N, 114-59E. Rear Admiral Kajioka goes down with the ship. He is promoted Vice Admiral, posthumously.

At 0500, LtCdr (later Vice Admiral) Eli T. Reich in the USS SEALION (SS-315) torpedoes the RAKUYO MARU, but she stays afloat for another 13 hours, sinking at 1820 that evening. She is carrying 1,318 Allied POWs, of whom 1,051 are lost. Reich also sinks the NANKAI MARU

Norman Malayney

[Brian]

Thanks guys for the latest.

Hi Norman, I have to admit that Navy friendly fires, although interesting, do not fit my remit. Thanks all the same.

Cheers
Brian

Dear Brian,

I do not know if you intend to cover the Vietnam war, but I found this interesting incident by accident at <taskforceomegainc.org/b410.html>

It states that on 25 Sept 1966:
"According to two gunship crewmen, the flight was flying from the south toward the north and the demilitarized zone (DMZ) when Capt. Ducat radioed for a change in the order of aircraft in the flight in preparation to pick up other wounded Marines. Phil Ducat was in the process moving his aircraft into the lead when it was struck in the pilot’s compartment by an artillery shell from Camp Carroll’s artillery battery.
The two escort gunships were approximately 75 yards in trail behind the two medevac aircraft when it exploded. The crews reported they watched in horror as the medevac helicopter instantaneously turned into a fireball with the main “rotor head going one way and the aircraft itself going straight down on fire like a flare.” "

They provide full particulars on the KIA crew members.

Norman Malayney

[Matheson]

Hi, I'm new on here although I have been on the RAFCommands site.

My wife and I were at the BOB memorial Service at Capel le Ferne last week representing the family of a former 222 sqn. BOB pilot who was killed on 24th August 1943 flying for 418 Squadron.

Following a suggestion from Brian Bines of this forum I have been looking into the question of whether this loss might have been due to friendly fire. I mentioned this during lunch with a BOB pilot, John and his family, who immediately piped up; "Dad'll tell you about that, wasn't there an incident in your Squadron." It seemed that there had been two such incidents in which his colleagues had been shot down by allied aircraft as a result of a lack of adequate communication between the Controllers at the various Beacons such that interceptors were sent out to positions determined by "Vectors". A statement made with some venom, even after all these years, so clearly the Squadron felt the loss of their airmen. This was in early 1943 so clearly the system at that time was still prone to errors.

The information I have had from Brian Bines, that followed an earlier thread on this forum concerning the ME410 losses on the night of 23/24-8-1943, together with the RAF combat logs which he also very kindly sent me , seemed to indicate that there was an 'extra' RAF claim that was not supported by Luftwaffe reports. This was not absolutely certain as the reports seem to be detailed differently and I wasn't sure if one Luftwaffe loss was being recorded as a 24th August claim by the RAF and a 23rd August loss by the Luftwaffe.

Nevertheless, only one Mosquito, which took off from Ford in Sussex at 02.28 on 24-8-1943, was lost by the RAF that night, and the German aircraft most likely to be confused with it was the ME410.

The timings, approximate locations and combat descriptions rule out all except one RAF reports as a possible cause for the loss of the Mosquito by friendly fire and that is the report by J Backhouse and G Goodman of 29 Squadron.

Whilst this is not conclusive, it provides a certain symmetry to the claims from either side, and I should be interested to hear if anybody else has investigated this claim in more detail.

From what I have learned, the weather over Northern France was fine but there could well have been thunderstorms over Central France.

Many thanks for any ideas about this,

Howard

[Franek Grabowski]

I am afraid that unless the incident was already recognised during the war, you will not find anything but a circumstantial evidence.

[macfire]

Hi Guys,
44 pages is a lot to read so I have submitted what information I have regarding Kiwis and friendly fire:

1941: 1st August,
602 Sqn Spitfire
Sqn Ldr A C Deere.
Hurricane Z2463 (?) of 242 Sqn mistakenly shot down. Claimed as Bf.109 destroyed. Sgt M G A C Casgrain RAF killed.
Refs: ACFTF, FCL1, SNZ

1944: 10th June,
485 Sqn RNZAF Spitfire MK950 OU:X
Fg Off A B Stead
Seafire III NF542, from 3 NFW, FAA, shot down and destroyed following repeated attacks by it. Sub Lt R G Kennett on his first op, killed.
Refs: SNZ

1944: 19th June,
602 Sqn Spitfire LE:J
Wt Off E S Doherty
USAAF P-39 Aircobra destroyed over Pionbino. Mistaken for a Bf.109 and attacked.
Refs: AH, AH2, SNZ

1944: 30th June
486Sqn RNZAF Tempest V JN810 SA:P
Flt Sgt S J Short, Safe.
Hit by friendly A/A fire during an Anti-diver patrol & crash-landed at Newchurch. Aircraft SoC.
FCL3, TWW

1944: 26th August
602 Sqn Spitfire LF.IXe PL264
Flt Sgt L T Menzies, Safe
Attacked by USAAF P-47 and ran out of fuel evading during a morning armed recce of the Rouen area. Crash-landed at Torigni-sur-Vire, Manche.
Refs: FCL3, SH

1945: 13th January
486Sqn RNZAF Tempest V EJ752 SA:H
Flt Lt L J Appleton, Injured
Aircraft struck high-tension lines then hit and canopy blown off by American AA fire near Vreden during an air-cover support mission for the US 1st Army in the Ardennes. Crash-landed in US lines near Euskirchen, Pilot seriously wounded in face and neck. Repatriated to NZ
Refs: FCL3, TWW

1945: 13th January
486Sqn RNZAF Tempest V EJ606 SA:U
Plt Off W A Kalka, Safe
Hit by American AA fire and caught fire during an air-cover support mission for the US 1st Army in the Ardennes. Baled out (and shot at) near Euskirchen/Verviers.
Refs: FCL3, TWW

1945: 13th January
486Sqn RNZAF Tempest V EJ577 SA:F
Sqn Ldr A E Umbers, Safe
Force-landed in US lines near Euskirchen/Verviers after being hit by American light AA fire during an Air-cover support mission for the US 1st Army in the Ardennes.
Refs: FCL3, TWW

References:
ACFTF: A Clasp For The Few, Wynn, Kenneth
AH (Vols 1 & 2): Aces High, Shores, Christopher & Williams, Clive
FCL (Vols 1 & 3): RAF Fighter Command Losses, Franks, Norman L R
SH: Spitfire, The History, Morgan, Eric B & Shacklady, Edward
SNZ: Spitfire, The New Zealand Story, Morris, Gerard S
TWW: The Wild Winds (486 Sqn), Sortehaug, Paul


Hope I have helped out,
Cheers
Tony