Friendly fire WWII

Dear Brian,

While brousing through the Aviation Saftey Network, I found this:
FW200 D-ARHW 29 November 1944, friendly fire accident

Norman Malayney

[Brian]

Thanks Tony and Norman

I do have these incidents records, but thanks all the same.

Tony: Deere wasn't guilty of the 1/8/41 downing of the 242 Squadron Hurricane.

Cheers
Brian

[macfire]

Thanks Brian.
I'll check to see where this reference originally came from.

[Andy Saunders]

Brian

Without ploughing through all the posts, do you have the episode on 14 September 1940 when 73 Squadron were attacked by Spitfires? I suspect it may have been 222 Sqn, although am not clear if the Hurricanes engaged the Spitfires??

On the subject of 222 Squadron, I see that Sgt P O Davis attacked a "Dornier 17 Z" ten miles off the coast at Dunkirk on 16 July 1941 which he noted as follows: "Camouflage was brown and green with circles on top of the wing. Green 2 recognised this as a hostile type...." He claimed it as damaged. His description of markings makes one wonder what it was!

Many congrats on V1 book, by the way.

[Rob Philips]

Hi Brian,

Are you aware that friendly fire incidents in the UK Gun Belts in the summer of 1944 came about as the result of imperfect technology? Both the British and the American AAA gunners had gun laying radar that automatically directed the guns, and proximity fuzes, the combination of which enabled to fire at targets, and to hit these, without optical contact. That was a first in the history of gunnery. What could have been, but was not, automated, was a link with the British IFF system. This could have been integrated by the American radar designers, but the British wished to keep their IFF system classified - even to the Allies. The net result was that the IFF operator had to shout his observations to the gunnery officer, with four AAA guns firing as fast as they could right next to him. This was a receipt for incidents.
If you want the technical details, check out
http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_...Abajian074.pdf
for an interview with an engineer who worked on the gun laying radar.

Furthermore, the proximity fuzed shells were lethal way beyond the gun belt no-fly zone limits. This means that a pilot, flying outside the no-fly zone as ordered, could be hit with fatal results by gunners who were firing at a V1, and who could perhaps not even see the friendly aircraft. A direct hit, or an explosion in the proximity of the aircraft, meaning within about 15 meters, of a 90mm shell would be fatal to a fighter aircraft.

Finally, several fighter bases were located WITHIN the gun belts, meaning that pilots had no choice but to enter the no-fly zone. The gunners were - to a degree - allowed to fire in inland directions as well.

To this can be added the usual human factor. The AA gunners had to learn the job with new tools, in actual combat, no time for proper training. They were given a firing window, in which friendly aircraft were not supposed to exist. In other words: they shot at everything.

Considering the secrecy with which the new technology was surrounded, one may wonder who in high command had the full picture, that could have led to measures to prevent or reduce these friendly fire incidents. I believe that this would have been possible, without negative results for the higher goal of shooting down doodlebugs.

Such incidents were covered up, as a result of the effort to keep the effectiveness of this automated AAA technology hidden from the enemy. If not covered up, then the explanation came easy: the pilot was flying where he should not have flown. It should be obvious from what I state here that this explanation does not do justice to the complexities of the there and then, putting the blame on the one who could no longer defend himself: the pilot.

The blame should not be put on the AAA-gunners either. Such simplifications distort the complexity of reality there and then.

A question, resulting from the observations above. Have you identified causes for friendly fire incidents, other than the ones mentioned above? I apologize if this question has already been forwarded and answered. I did not read all the pages of this thread.

Regards,

Rob

[George Hopp]

Such incidents were covered up, as a result of the effort to keep the effectiveness of this automated AAA technology hidden from the enemy. If not covered up, then the explanation came easy: the pilot was flying where he should not have flown. It should be obvious from what I state here that this explanation does not do justice to the complexities of the there and then, putting the blame on the one who could no longer defend himself: the pilot.

Another example of this would be the orders for Sicily: If they're flying towards land they're ours. If they're flying towards the sea, they're the enemy. This was a bit hard on the C-47s who had dropped their sticks of troopers, and were returning to base.

Don't forget the informal anti-aircraft motto: If it flies it dies.

[Nokose]

06Nov43 near Linovyi Skitok
Major Aleksandr Sergeevich Romanenko (HSU) 91 IAP was killed when his Yak-9 was shot down by Russian flak. He had 21 victories and 5 shared at the time.

[mayfair35]

Brian:
While going through these various comments, I came upon your 5 Oct 2005 (Wow!) statement in which you mentioned your frustration in not being able to find anything about a Westland Lysander shot down on 22 Nov 1944 by a P-51.
I recalled hearing something about such an event and started searching. Our official report of the mission (#123) for that date says nothing about this incident; however there was an officer in the 318th FS who made rather complete notes about many of the missions, this being one. I will quote you what he wrote. This was a PTW mission to marshalling yards at Munich, Germany.

First part of his comments references the mission details. There is then this added part.

At 13:45 on the Groups return and from a height of 17,000 feet an observation aircraft was seen at 4,000 feet. Three P-51s (who?) made a pass at the aircraft. The flight leader closed in to identify the aircraft, the recognition from astern lead him to believe that it was a German aircraft and he fired a few bursts at it, observing hits on the wing and rear fuselage. The flight leader then called out to the other two aircraft of his flight to hold their fire, as the aircraft was British. The third man in the flight was then jumped by two Spitfires, he immediately turned into them and fortunately no one fired. The third man was then jujmped by a flight of 52nd Fighter Group P-51s, waggling his wings the 52nd Fighter Group aircraft realized their mistake and broke off. The flight leader believed on further recognition the aircraft attacked was a Wesland Lysander, no fire or smoke was observed and the aattacked aircraft appeared to be in good shape as it was left to make its way.

FYI the Formation leader of the Group for this mission is deceased as is the mission leader of the 319th FS; however, the mission leader of the 317th FS is still alive.

There was an earlier incident in which one of our aces was involved; however, he could not have been part of this incident as by November he was a POW.

Cordially, Art Fiedler

[Brian]

Thanks Nokose and Art for the latest - most interesting.

Art, do you think that the 317th FS mission leader will be able to help? If so, how can I contact him? Or are you in touch with him? He may not be prepared to tell me even if he does know!

Over to you again.

Many thanks
Brian

[Amrit1]

Found this whilst looking for something in the Australian Archives, and can't find any mention of it in the forum.

Beaufighter V8187, shotdown by USAAF Spitfires in the Med.

Flight Sergeants Waddle and Noonan killed.

Maybe someone can add to this.

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imag...74941&I=1&SE=1