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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. |
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#41
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Re: About WW2 fighter aircraft firing power
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#42
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Re: About WW2 fighter aircraft firing power
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Infact I agree with you that the USAF might have done better by adopting a cannon like the Hispano or the MG 151. However, it's not the point discused here. |
#43
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Re: About WW2 fighter aircraft firing power
Thanks, Tony. 3 and 4 point harmonisation added to the list too.
Assume an engagement range of 200 meters. Small caliber projectiles, Vo say 850 m/s, V200 say 650 m/s, Vaverage over that trajectory say 700 m/s, would take 200/700 = 0,29 second only to reach the target. Forgetting about a quantification of the violent evasive action capabilities of the target, and same for the attacker to follow that evasive action, and forgetting about a pattern fired so far forward that the pilot in the target had a reaction time in the >0,5 second area, then would your idea still hold? It would interest me to hear about this from those who have been up there. The point is, or could be, that small caliber rounds flying at such velocities cannot be seen. Neither by the attacker, nor by the pilot in the target aircraft. The flying noise would be such that they could not hear the projectiles in flight either. From my own experiments it follows that a small caliber projectile, meaning <10mm, can be seen, if you are focussed and if lighting conditions are good, only at speeds well below 200 m/s. Poor sample count in this experiment; I assume my eyes to be as sharp and as fast as the eyes of the average guy. This might be a bit different if there is a dense pattern flying around, I don't know. It seems that there is a clear benefit in this type of extremely fast four dimensional shooting, if you can see where the pattern is going. The fighter pilot is there to control the aircraft which is there to carry & aim the guns. It seems that a tracer path offers a more intuitive picture than any gun sight could do, in the days of unguided ammunitions. Regards, Rob |
#44
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Re: About WW2 fighter aircraft firing power
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AVIA 6/16177 This is RAE report on aiming simultor but it contain some flight tested data. DSIR 23/15015 This comparison of various fighters as aiming platform. AIR 20/12712 Aerial gunnery theory, lots of it... AVIA 6/17286 Effects of aiming and harmonisation patterns in air to air gunnery. AVIA 18/1626 Aiming characteristics of fighter aircraft AIR 77/62 Review of the Aiming errors and firing tactics of Fighter aircraft. This report is particularly good because the sources include for example Luftwaffe gun camera data. |
#45
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Re: About WW2 fighter aircraft firing power
Thanks, Harri, looks promising. How can I access this material?
Aiming surely is the key factor. No hits without aiming. But I'm looking for technological ways that could possibly make it easier for the average marksman to score hits. No doubt others have given this long and deep thoughts 7 decades ago. It is just that I'm missing something, in the material I have seen so far. Regards, Rob |
#46
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Re: About WW2 fighter aircraft firing power
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...efault.asp?j=1
In practice you should go there, digital cameras are allowed... or order the copies (rather expensive). |
#47
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Re: About WW2 fighter aircraft firing power
Thanks, Harri.
Does any of the forum visitors have any of the documents mentioned by Harri available, as that would be the fast way to obtain the information? Regards, Rob |
#48
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Re: About WW2 fighter aircraft firing power
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I suspect that there were two reasons why the US stayed with the .50: it was the only reliable aircraft gun they had, and it proved adequate as long as they fitted at least six of them. That is not exactly a ringing endorsement. The following extract from a 1944 US evaluation may be of interest: "As it is now, we have the 50-cal. gun which has reached its peak. The only improvements will be minor. The only good increase is to increase the number of guns. So it seems to be just about the right time to look for a better weapon. There are two possibilities here - the one we have and the one we might get shortly. The one we have is a 20-mm gun. I think very highly of it. In fact, it is one we have here, and it is one in hand. It won't do what the 60 will do, but we haven't got the 60, and we won't have it for a year. So, we are gradually working into all of our aircraft the 20-mm gun. To give you some idea of the 50 versus the 20 and dispel a lot of ideas that have bothered us, I would like to give you a comparison. When somebody goes from four 50's to two 20's, to the layman that means a decrease in fire power. Actually, quite the reverse is true. In the horsepower of the gun, one 20 is equal to three .50-calibers. In the actual rate of fire delivered at the target, one 20 equals three 50's; in kinetic energy at 500 yards, one 20 equals two and one half 50's.[N.B. This takes no account of the effect of the HE content of the 20mm shells] |
#49
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Re: About WW2 fighter aircraft firing power
Fascinating stuff. Actually our pilots were taught deflection shooting on the Mosquito which had a fixed ring gun sight!.
The radius could be varied by setting the span of the target aircraft and so the range would be correct when the targets span filled the ring. With me so far; then pilots were taught to "lead off" by say "half a rad", or "one and a half rads", according to their judgement of angle off and closing speed. If you have shot birds or game with a shotgun you will know what I mean. In fact we had a supply of shotguns, clay pigeons and ammo so that the pilots could practice. In addition we did many sorties of "cine", where aircraft flew in pairs and took turns to be fighter and target. High quarter attacks were the norm and cine taken when the pilot judged he was right. Then the films were assesed, frame by frame to judge how good the pilot was and he was criticised as required. I used to help our gunnery officer by doing some of this tedious work, in retrurn for a go on the clay pigeon shoots. When we got the Meteor, with a gyro gunsight, of course things were much easier to assess, but as in all instances accurate flying was essential. I must visit the NA again, I had no idea of all those references that's a goldmine. What I put down here is dredged from some recess of my antique brain.
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Peter Verney ex nav/rad |
#50
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Re: About WW2 fighter aircraft firing power
Thanks, Peter. Your brain is probably well filled rather than antique. Furthermore, that term also means "value increases with age".
The statement that clay pigeon shooting was one form of preparation for aerial combat, is very clarifying. Regards, Rob |
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