Stanislaw, Skalski

[robert]

Hi Many,

do you have time of these patrol in the morning of 8.11.40?

Regards

Robert

[Many Souffan]

Hello Robert.

Yes of course I have the hour but I must look for.

Sorry, I have no time now, I must finish the last issue of my Revue (AceS) But I will tell you, sûre...

Thank you very much

[robert]

Hi,

o.k. I will wait.

Regards

Robert

[focusfocus]

Hello All

08/11/1940
Beautiful story?.....really?....Strange Homologation!

Did any of you look for who these two "famous" Bf.109 were found by Royal Observer Corps (wrecks:two!).

I tried (material losses in Luftwaffe lists,casualties).........nothing,and I always try.

But,maybe I don't have the missing elements.

So....and you?

Best Regards
Michel

[Franek Grabowski]

It is all in the book, including reports.
BTW
Origin of the rudder is unclear. Skalski claimed it was removed from the aircraft he shot down near their airfield, but I have also heard that Lacey liberated it from a scrap yard at Kenley.

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Many Souffan

…

When I saw the article in Avions n° 141 (dec 2004) I was vey upset and annoyed because some photos and some infos came directly from my article without asking a permission.

I was sure because for these 2 photos I took directly during my visit to "Skal" . Impossible to find these two photos outside of the collection of the great Ace

In my revue AceS in issue number 2 (Feb 2017) I did a new version of the bio of Skalski with the help of Franek with some photographs ( his book is fantastic !).

For the victories of the 8 nov 1940, I found at the PI&SM a long time ago a paper in the Skalski files about these 2 victories of 8 nov 1940. I have a xray copy of this paper some where….

Good evening Many,

that's too bad. Luckily I'm no author.
What is "PI&SM" ?

Michael

[Many Souffan]

Hello Michael.

PI&SM or PISM = Polish Institute and Sikorski Museum.

The Flight was after midday of 8th November.

I give to all the Intelligence Patrol Report.

Engagement of 501 Squadron with part of a force of 30 plus Me 109's near sevenoaks at 13H50 on 8th novevember 1940.

Nine Hurricane of n°501 squadron left Kenley at 13.15 hours and were vectored south. They were sent up to about 28000 feet and given a vector of 040°. Near Sevenoaks, while flying in this direction, Blue 1 (F/Lt Jones) sighted 30 plus me 109's going south-West in the opposite direction about 1000 feet below and spread out in no particular formation about half a mile away on the left. other pilots have reported that there were several Me 109's about. Blue 1 turned and led the squadron round to attack the enemy aircraft from astern. The singled out one and attacked it from astern and below with a short burst, noticing at the same time that the enemy were trying to get onto his tail. Pieces of cowling and black smoke came off from the Me 109 attacked. Blue 1 was then attacked by one of the nearest him. He put his plane into a dive to evade, but having shaken it off, he climbed again to join in the pursuit. Blue 2 (Sgt Whitehouse) also attacked one of the Me 109's from astern and this emitted smoke. He chase another back to the coast.
Red 2, P/O Skalski also attacked another and this E/A gave out black smoke, before he in his turn was attacked. There was not sufficient evidence from the pilots to claim either of thes twa enemy aircraft as having bee damaged, but later it was reported (Royal Observer Corps) that two Me had crashed near Crowborough at 13.52 hours. As it is not possible to allot them individually to the three pilots who engaged they are claimed on behalf the squadron. Blue 1 saw an aircraft spiralling down which he thought wasa Me 109, but later recognized, it was a Hurricane. On the way back he went down to the place he thought it was and saw the pilot did not bale out. It was subsquently confirme that Sgt Grove had crashed at Wilthyham, sussex. Eight Hurricane returned to Kenley at 14.10 hours. The weather was clear with a certain amount of cloud up to 3000 ft. There was tracks of high clouds but the visibility was good.
Our losses Sgt Grove killed
E/A casualties 2 Me destroyed, one Me 109 damaged

[i][b]Note on Intelligence Patrol Report.
No combat report are submitted for the two Me 109'S which crashed near crowborough at 13.52 hours. the three pilots, F/Lt Jones, P/O Skalski and sgt Whitehouse attacked the Me 109's, but they were themselves attacked by other enemy aircraft they did not see the results of their first attacks.
It is therefore not possible to say which the pilot shot them down. though the circumstances and no doubt that they were shot down by the three pilots concerned.
J. C Nixon Squadron Intelligence Officier (P/O)

Hope this document is a good answer...

Thank you

[knusel]

Good morning Many,

thanks for the document.
To me it leaves it undecided whether the two kills were credited or not. Both seems possible. What's your opinion ?

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael

[Many Souffan]

Hello Michael.

I have written the two documents. The first says the 2 victories go to the Squadron et the second one give the 3 names of the only pilots of 501 Sqn who made an attack. The problem is the three pilots didn't claim these 2 victories, absolutly sûre, the wrecks were found by men of Royal Observers Corps and the 501 sqn was the only one unit in this aera (257 Sqn was in another one). Chris Shores doesn't count these 2/3 victories, John Foreman count them with other names and in last Skalski when I met him in September 2000, spoke about these victories.
So for me if the facts are real and the pilot claim them even after the war, I count them for the pilot.

I have the same thing with Marcel Albert during the battle of France, he told me he claim a He 111 but refused because he wasn't officer, yes, but the wreck was found and written in the German files of losses... No other French pilot claimed this He 111.

Have a nice day.

[focusfocus]

Hi Mr.Souffan

If I may,several things cause me problems about these two Bf.109.

a)What are these wrecks found by Observers Corps?...There are certainly reports made?
b)Fate of the pilots?...identities?wounded?parachuted and captured?killed-buried where.....tombs with unknown pilot?
c)What markings,camouflage colors.....etc.etc.

Losses found that day:
Erg.St./JG3,Wnr.3476,'St Omer-Wizernes
6/JG26,Wnr.2770,cras-landed 'Le Portel
2/JG77,Wnr.0948,crashed in france
Erg.St./JG52,Wnr.3214,belly-landed 'Sterkrade"

About Albert
I am very surprised by the reason:not an officer!!why all these credited victories to "Simple Corporals"(sometimes Polish,Czech)
When this He.111 was shot down?...We know where the wreckage was found?
Sorry for that all questions!

Best Regards
Michel