German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[Nokose]

That doesn't always mean that an aircraft "reported as shot down by ZA" did not get shot down also by a German fighter. I've ran across two Il-2 reported by Soviet records as shot down by AAA in 1943 that actually fell to fighters of JG 54 afterwards.

[Rob Romero]

Thanks for the clarification guys! I have edited Post 39. Still anywhere from an 16.5 to 1 to - AT BEST - a 3 to 1 overclaim ratio however!

[GMichalski]

hi,
about Hartmann i found this info (claims by Johannes, some info by Nick Hector and me):

Between 04.02.44-26.02.44:

4,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum 15km westlich Signajewka 15km W Signajewka 1140 3500 E J 192

9 GIAD (or VVS ChF?) 129 GIAP no losses

26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Kirowograd Kirovgrad area 908 3000 E J 193
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Kirowograd Kirovgrad area 916 3000 E J 194

9 GIAD (or VVS ChF?) Only on loss Mladshiy Leytenent Leontiya Zadiraki 129 GIAP bail out return safely, 304 IAD had no more losses at this time and 205 IAD located in other region

26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Alexandrowka Alekandrovka area 1145 4000 E J 195
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Alexandrowka Alekandrovka area 1148 3000 E J 196
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum 10km westlich Alexandrowka 10km W Alekandrovka 1153 3000 E J 197
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum 29km südsüdwestlich Kirowograd 20km SSW Kirovograd 1158 2500 E J 198
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Alexandrowka Alekandrovka area 1203 2000 E J 199

Probably 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov bail out safe, Starshiy Leytenant Zinchenko KIA and Leytenant Mamin bail out. Two more damaged and force landing Demchenko landed at the airfield and was repaired and Motuzko aircraft was sent to PARM atributed to Krupinski

26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum Alexandrowka Alekandrovka area 1440 2500 E J 200
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum 10km östlich Alexandrowka 10km E Alekandrovka 1445 3000 E J 201
26,2.44 9./JG 52 Lt P-39 raum 10km westlich Alexandrowka 10km W Alekandrovka 1450 2000 E J 202

9 GIAD (or VVS ChF?) 205 IAD 2 lost and one more damaged. Mladshiy Leytenant Vodolazhsky was shoot down in a dive and bail out. Leytenant Oleynikov was shoot down after the air battle 10min later. One from 129 GIAP Leytenant Korolev was damaged and made a force landing on their airfield. 438 IAP. Rall and Bachnick are believed to have claimed against Mladshiy Leytenant Vodolazhskiy (KIA?) and Leytenant Oleynikov (known to have baled successfully)

probably 4 + 2 damaged forcelanded of 11 claims...
if you add some info...or have different info....

enjoy,
regards

[mars]

Did other Luftwaffe pilots claim victory at the same time and same area?

[Nick Hector]

I acknowledge Nokose and Nikita Yegorov as providing much of the original source material attributed to me by GMichalski.

[John Beaman]

Guys, interesting continuation of and old, controversial subject. But, we may have beat some of it to death.

I recommend sticking with the line of actual losses versus claims. That is productive. The basic issue of over claiming was done by ALL air forces in WWII, not just the Luftwaffe, sometimes between 3 to one and even higher. So, it is a dead issue about who was the worst.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Nokose

That doesn't always mean that an aircraft "reported as shot down by ZA" did not get shot down also by a German fighter.

I can second that. Often, it was "safer", less "complicated" to report an aircraft lost to flak than to enemy fighters. I encountered many instances when a loss officially attributed to anti-aircraft defence was most probably scored by fighters. I found such cases especially when researching USAAF losses over Central and Eastern Europe. That's why it's recommended to assess overall losses against overall claims (including flak). For example, I used such approach in my book, "From Barbarossa to Odessa", vols. 1 and 2, dealing with the air war over the Southern area of the Eastern Front (June-October 1941). I was very surprised to realise how inaccurate the claims of all involved parties were against actual losses. Finally, not only total losses should be taken into consideration, but also damaged ones, as often such damaged aircraft were eventually written off, but in all cases were certainly taken out of service for a shorter or longer while, which was the aim of the adversary when pursuing a "kill".

[Juha]

Hello Dénes, I agree with the first part of your message but I’m not so sure on the second part, because there were damages and damages, of the first 3 planes below, the effect of the damage to the FiAF’s combat capacity was insignificant, only some extra work to mechanics, next two had varying effect and the last two were in effect lost, at least to the duration of the war.

090644, c 1240, MT-213, 2./HLeLv 24, Ltm Yrjö Turkka unhurt, Valkeasaari-Joutsenselkä, 1 hvmg hit on left wing during aircombat, repaired next combat sortie on same day 1610, from combat report

020744, c 1150, MT-416, 3/HLeLv34, Kers M. Durchmann unhurt, Viipuri, 1 mg hit on right wing Il-2, repaired 020744 1645- next combat sortie, from combat report

140644, c 1200, MT-419, 3./HLeLv34, kapt Olli Puhakka unhurt, Tyrisevä, 2 20mm hits during head-on attack by La-5 aileron rod severed, repaired next combat sortie 150644 0955, from combat report

100644, c 1045, MT-231, 1./HLeLv 24, kers A Koskelainen unhurt, Raivola-Kivennapa, 3 hvmg hits 1 on tip of right wing 1 on fuselage 1 on rudder, repaired next combat sortie 140644 1800, from combat report

020644, 1430, MT-209, 3./HLeLv 24, ylik E. Vesa unhurt, Kuuterselkä/Uusikirkko, hits on radiator fuselage and airscrew during air combat by Yak-9 forced landing onto field, repaired to 2./HLeLv 24 190644, from combat report

170644, 1155, MT-419, 3./HLeLv34, kapt Olli Puhakka unhurt, SW of Muolaanjärvi/Heinjoki a/f, 3 hvmg hits 1 hit to radiator 2 hits in blades during aircombat by Il-2 (The history of LeR 3 says hit by a fighter), during forced landing onto Heinjoki a/f right u/c retracted right wingtip bended blades chipped, destr during transport to repairs 200644 during the bombing of Elisenvaara station, SOC 300844, from combat report and ac papers flight time 26h 20min 8 victories

280644, c 1000, MT-437, 3/HLeLv 24, kers K Keskinummi WiA, SE of Viipuri, hits during aircombat forced landing at Nuijamaa, repaired after war 201045 to HLeLv 23, place deduction from others’ combat reports

Juha

[GMichalski]

Hi,
sorry i forget some of the info are of Nokose and Nikita Yegorov
and also some webs...

regards

[Rob Romero]

Because on a number of occasions, I have discussed examples of overclaiming of Luftwaffe experten, it’s been suggested in some quarters that I have an anti-German bias. However, while I do find examining extreme overclaimers an interesting aspect of air combat, my primary interest is in whom were the very best fighter pilots based on actual results - not credits. An example of one whose claims seems to reflect reality seems to be Helmut Lipfert (203) whose “Combat Diary” I recommend as the best and most insightful recollection of pure air combat by a single pilot that I have ever read. Despite his prolific success Lipfert never claimed more than five aircraft in a day (which he did once). Because of this “Johannes” one of the major contributors to this site has cited him as likely to be among the more reliable claimers among the top experten. Now there seems to be some confirmation of his suspicions in Post 167 of this already provided link:

http://reibert.info/threads/%D0%AD%D...n.76229/page-7 [Google Translate: “Just do not all be lumped together. Victory Fennekolda Lipferta and many applications which, incidentally, are confirmed in our documents were in a completely different area. Group 2 August 23 flew from one airport to another Romanian, so in the battles of Sandomierz not participate. Lipfert, incidentally, won the day yet another unconfirmed victory, but as Zaksenberg himself was shot down and made a forced landing in Galati - but it has already been discussed and generally another topic.”]

While no specific information has been provided, the above seems to strongly indicate that a comparison of Lipfert’s claims to actual losses in Russian records has shown them to be quite reliable. If someone can figure out who has unearthed this information or where it can be perused, it would make a useful contribution to this area of inquiry. The post also seems to suggest that Oblt. Otto Fönnekold (136) and other JG52 pilots were reliable claimers.